Done some work for a fella on his motorcycle trailer. He has since contacted me and wants me to build him a sign for a Bar he frequents. The owner of the Bar wants the sign to have a "Harley" theme or look to it.
He is wanting the Harley Davidson Bar and Shield with the name of his establishment in place of the Harley Davidson stuff...
Basically he wants the bar to say "Fillsdale" And above that on the shield "Bar" and below on the shield to say "Grill"
Also he wants his phone # and "open 7 day's" or something that denotes the fact that he is open 7 day's a week.
the sign is limited to a 4 x 6 either MDO or Allumacore basically a 1/2 inch sheet of something and it will hang from an existing pole.
It is to be 6' length and 4 ' tall....
He really wants vinyl, but I am at liberty to make any adjustments..
This place is far out in the country, and I am thinking of using some reflective on it so that is can be seen at night, Electrifying this sign is not an option, so lights will not be an option either.
Color is left completely to me...
I am afraid I might be treading lightly on Copyright with this, but since he only wants the bar and shield, I really do not know...
And I was just curious if anyone here has any ideas for design, I am always open for suggestion...
I can afford to spend about $250 to $300 on material and still make a good profit on this one..
I may reach a little further into the finished product than the actual cost of this sign, don't get me wrong, I am going to make a good profit, but I am also willing to make a little less on this one for business reasons...
Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated
Posted by Michael Latham (Member # 4477) on :
Copyrights are a funny issue. I have a friend that has a resturant/bar. He had the same idea replacing the bbq pit for the harley stuff, then had a local t-shirt screenprinter do the logo and print shirts. The screenprinter is very big, going to shows from miami to NY city. They are doing the national volleyball trials in philly? next month. Anyway, they had no problem duplicating the harley logo!! Just FYI.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I think you are right to consider the copyright. I would tel them that it is not legal, but if they decide to do it anyway, they can take that chance. I would use original colors & not be too concerned with taking the exact shape & proportions from Harley. Do the same letter distortion in the shield & you will convey the right idea. Even with an altered shape, new colors & deferent copy... I think it does walk the line. (How far, & on which side of the "line" is directly proportional the price a of lawyer)
As for material, I'm thinking the rectangular panel would be 2 pieces sandwiching the shield. Shield could be 1/2" & both rectangles could be 3/4" MDO for extra strength... or if posts are closer then the 6', then sandwiching the posts could allow building up the shield to the thickness of the posts could add some nice dimension to it, if thats in the budget.
*edit* by "original colors" I meant original to your client instead of copying. I don't think that came across correctly above. also I was trying to say don't match the shape exactly. (an ounce of prevention...) BTW I was also asked to do this exact thing for a builder, but with just shirts & decals & cards... I didn't worry too much. If I had to do a large sign though, I would consider it possible that HD would want it down.
[ May 20, 2004, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Leonard Sappington (Member # 4562) on :
Doug, I am a little lost on your sandwich idea... Simply because maybe I did not explain my situation well...
This will be a hanging sign from an overhead pole...
The pole is already in place from the last sign..
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
You mean something like this?
Chrome chains would be cool for hanging it.
I dunno if this qualifies as a copyright violation or not. I think it sits dangerously on the fence. It does suggest the Harley logo, but may be sufficently altered enough to be legal. As Doug mentioned, make sure the customer understands the risks in doing something this close to a registered logo.
Rapid
Posted by John Smith (Member # 1308) on :
wow, RAY !!! AWESOME layout !!! WHO, in their right mind, would go around a crowded biker bar to discuss copyright infringements ???? LOL very, very nice layout !!
Posted by Leonard Sappington (Member # 4562) on :
Wow Ray...
Whats the chance of you having that vectorized already ? lol
Yes, I think that will be it....
Posted by Cheryl Lucas (Member # 1656) on :
Nuthin' new under the sun. It's all a matter of how ya re-arrange it...
Thanks for the visual, Ray. Looks nice!
Cher.
Posted by Leonard Sappington (Member # 4562) on :
Ray, that was actually what I had in mind...
I have a question for all you folks... I am sort of new to the Hanging Sign concept. I have never hung a sign of this size. What is the best way , cosmetical and functional to atach such a chain to MDO ?
I think I will go with Stainless Chain, since I really could not find the chrome, and it would probably push the envelope of budget to use chrome.
Do they make such an attachment ?
Everything else I have hung has had a solid wrap frame, and attaching chain would not be a problem...
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Leonard,
I'd drill holes where needed in the MDO and glue washers on each side with Gorilla glue prior to painting the backround. This will prevent the sign from chipping or wearing out from the friction created when it swings in the breeze.
If the swinging is a concern, a turnbuckle and a couple of eyelets attaced from the side of the sign to the bulding should take care of that issue. Not pretty, but functional.
Just for giggles, you could use any kind of link chain. primer it, and for about 12 bucks in materials, Duplicolor makes a 2 part pray paint that would look cool. It is an annodized paint that gives a chrome look and is available in 5 colors. It's at Wal-Mart in the automotive section.
Rapid
Posted by Ron Carper (Member # 999) on :
15 years ago I did a sign for a the Hershey Chronicle in Hershey, PA The sign was a rectangle, painted brown, with cream letters. A month later they got a letter from Hershey Chocolate, they had to take the sign down and change the colors. Depends on who sees the sign. Doing a Harley look a like sign in York, PA would be asking for trouble. In another remote location, it might not be.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I know it's a typo Ray...But I use a lot of that "Pray Paint" too!!!
I pray that it doesn't run, I pray that a fly doesn't do the backstroke in it, I pray that a sandstorm doesn't turn the job into sandpaper, I pray that there aren't any fisheyes in it, I pray that it dries overnight so I can continue with the job in the morning!! Posted by Cheryl Lucas (Member # 1656) on :
About the hanging/attachment system; instead of washers, is it be feasable to consider a half a grommet, ya know, the side with the flange? This inserted into the hole could possibly prevent chafing and ovaling out the hole... jus' brainstorming... Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
roflmao, Appy.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
After our conversation Ray all I can say is OOOOHHHHH AHHHHHH OHHHHHHHH Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Leonard, I have just the thing for hanging this sign. E-mail me.
I could be entirely off on this, but I can't imagine why Harley would have a problem with this. One, it doesn't say Harley Davidson, and two, Harley spends millions in advertising to slap that hideous bar and shield logo all over the place, and here is some goofball who's going to pay to do it himself, yet he]s not doing it to sell any Harley-badged merchandise. Harley sells a corporate-sponsored (and utterly conformist) "lifestyle" based on their tractor-like obsolete motorcycles and a sickening plethora of Harley-badged merchandise, and they count on people like Leonard's client to promote their version of the biker mystique.
This from a Triumph owner who never misses a chance to tweak Harley worshippers.
[ May 20, 2004, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Cam Bortz ]
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
Cam that is classic! I nearly urinated all over myself
Edited to add that I once rode a Triumph 500 twin, as well as an 850 Norton Commando! Sure brings back great memories.
[ May 20, 2004, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Bob Stephens ]
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Bob, that Norton is still on my wish list. Rice burners and two-wheeled manure spreaders are not.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Nuthin vibrates like a Triumph. I am also so sick of the "Harley Culture" I could hurl. Nuthing against anybody's bike, but I think if ya don't own one, you shouldn't plaster their logo across your chest, your old lady's chest, your kids' chests, your front license plate, your back bumper, and the back window of your F-150. And all these yuppies out there in tennis shoes and shorts riding their hogs on weekends. When I see some numb-nuts kid in similar attire on a riceburner, doing wheelies when he pulls out from a traffic light, I cringe too. If you are gonna ride, be safe. My niece married a Davidson, I used to kid her about naming one of her sons Harley. Sorry for the rant....I feel the same way about "Dale Sr." fans who make the same fashion/vehicle statement. Now everybody will hate me! Waaa! But at least they keep us in the vynull & pinstriping business, huh. Nice design, Rabid. Love...Jill PS Actually, I hate wearing anything that has a logo!
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Back in the early 60's we laughed at Marlon Brando for riding a Triumph in "The Wild One"
Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :
Go with Ray's Design Cam's Bracket System
hope this helps
Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
copyright infringement is a weird thing, I just finished a t-shirt design that had a takeoff of the "OCC" sword. Ironically it was for a COPYWRIGHT LAWYER- according to his professional insight, his design was considered parody- not trying to represent the real thing. It made no reference to "OCC", the art was redrawn and modified, it merely resembled the motorcycle "look". Same could be said for your "Harley" knockoff- if it said Harley Davidson, or you were making motorcycles called "Harvey Davidsons" trying to pass them off to unsuspecting customers, You would have PROBLEMS!
I have used that shield and bar type design for other stuff- as parody only!
Posted by John Smith (Member # 1308) on :
I would try to feel out the budget for this project. If dollars allowed, I would glue two sheets of 1" HDU together with a groove to accept the chain all the way through and sandblast and carve as much as you can. WOW !!! that would look sooooooooo COOL !!!
(HONDA Goldwinger) Posted by Brian O'Prey (Member # 4063) on :
I would hang the sign with as few links in the chain as possible (one is normally a good idea) and not use a side chain. The reason.....putting a side chain on a free swinging sign creates a stress point. The sign wants to swing freely absorbing the energy of the wind. The chain cauaes the sign to fight the wind energy and therefore causes stress at the point where the chain is affixed. This will, more than likely, lead to damage at that point and will pull itself away. By using only one link at both attachment points at the top of the sign....the sign can swing freely with no sidewared motion. One link may not look so appealing but it will help make the sign longer lasting.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
I was thinking the same thing, John. That would be a neat dimensional sign. I really like the idea of running the chain through the HDU. That would take away the wear and tear form swaying.
Cam, Ok, now ya got me curious. How 'bout emailing me a shot of the bracket you have in mind...just gotta know after being down to your shop. One of Scotty's?
Rapid
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I usually call out welding the links together, a trick I learned from a Disney project.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Drew this up real quick, a poormans dimensional sign, cut out HDU, or Aluminum, letters and border, attached to welded frame, sign hangs from welded chainlink to collar on supplied post. Lower panel attatched with chain. Upper square panel painted graphics atttached to face.
Posted by Brian O'Prey (Member # 4063) on :
Getting back to the physics of the sign, I think by attaching the lower panel by chain will give cause for damage as it will move about at a different rate to heavier main piece. I would attach the lower panel by a fixed attachment. I agree the sign looks better with a chain but am concerned about it's practicalities.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I agree iit should all be fixed, welding the links together works, but I'm sure a brushed stainless tube attachment would look nice or twisted wrought iron, but this is a tight budget. Would make a cool sign....
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
WOW, Rick,
Great construction plan. Ya blew me away with that.
Leonard, you might want to print out this whole thread and take it to the customer. It would probably knock him flat to see how cool it could come out with all this info.
Upsel,upsell, upsell. Worst he could say is no... Rapid
Posted by Leonard Sappington (Member # 4562) on :
Man oh Man.... Well, it is too late for some of the ideas that are flying at me, and really not in the budget of this place.. This place is a small little bar in the middle of nowhere. Right now my material cost is reaching the 1/3 mark and I really do not want to go beyond that.. But I definatly want to make the best bang for the buck. These folks have been really good customers, and I want to treat them right, and save them a little money. Not to mention they serve a Darn Good Lunch that I enjoy from time to time... I will keep you all posted as this thing comes together, and I will be sure to include photo's when all is said and done...
Again WOW ! I have learned alot just today !!!
Thanks folks
Posted by Danny Brown (Member # 4729) on :
Hi Folks, Ive been lurking for a few days and decided to join in. 10 Mins later everyone seems to be dis'n Harleys. Gee this is going to be interesting. I love Harleys, the look, the sound, the t-shirts and all the money people bring me to paint em! Would I fit in better if I were still just lettering trucks? Haha! Danny
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Welcome to Lettervile, Danny.
Sounds like you and Cam might have a few "interesting" posts before too long...lol.
Rapid
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Technically, I think you could be in violation. McDonald's goes after anyone and everyone who uses "arches" similar to theirs in anything.
They even took a guy to court once because he opened a restaurant called, "McDonalds" without any resemblance to the fast food logo...his last name by the way, was McDonald. He was forced to change the name of his establishment.
But having said that....I think Cam is probably right....Harley probably couldn't care less unless the establishment gained local or national notoriety for something that was VERY obscene or controversial....then they might put leverage on the guy, thinking it might reflect badly on their name.
Posted by Danny Brown (Member # 4729) on :
Ray, Im an easy goin kinda guy,lol. Thanks for the welcome buddy. Danny
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Leonard, if you put "Open 7 Days", please leave off your apostrophe- the 's' on days just means plural- lots of days- & not an abbreviation, nor posession.
Very nice rendition Ray!
Posted by Karman Fairless (Member # 2330) on :
Hay Leonard,
I just happen on your post and had some insight for you. I designed a logo for a Harley Chopper shop in St. Louis Mo. some 15 years ago. The shops name is Roadworthy Motorcycles. I thought in would be neat to use a cool cartoony eagle holding up a look a like shield with the shop name in it. We used black and red in the original design. The owner of the shop and I talked a lot about the Harley issue and desided that we had a design that was way out there on the edge of the copyright thing and went for it. I'm tell'n ya it didn't take Harleys Lawer hounds 1 year and this guy had warnings and law suits coming in faster than he could keep track. with in 6 mouths he was in court trying to explain himself for his (gross lack of respect for a registered american icon ) _KAK! The owner was kind enough to keep me out of the mess and took total responablty for the design. When it came out of the wash, Harley Alloyed him to keep the logo after he redesign it ( change the shield completely ), pay for the court cost and a small royalty fee, ( equaling the cost of a small but nice house.). My advice is number #1 check out the law, #2 Ask for a release for any responabilty on the design.( Wish sometimes doesn't keep you out of the problem.)
Hope this isn't scareing you, just thought I'd share it with you. Harley does pay alot money to keep there MONEY MAKER a HOT item. Be carful and have fun doing it.
Karman karmanart@piasanet.com
p.s. The new logo is in black and white, I believe the websight is Roadworhtymotorcycles.com
The owner may or maynot comment on the whole ugly deal. ask at your own risk. KK
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Geez, 80% of you persons use that same badge thingie for your antique signs although you may not use the orange color.
Ask the owner for a couple primary chains and use a little imagination Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Come to think of it, about 10 years ago there was a bar in a town near Kissy that was called "Fat Boyz". Harley went after them BIG-TIME. They had to re-do all their signs, etc. etc. For awhile they were "Bat Boyz" but that was just stoopid. I got a job re-doing their sign/logo into "Top Dawgz" and it was my first to get into a magazine. All hand-painted! I won a t-shirt. I think the bar is now defunct. Harley DOES notice. Love...Jill
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This inserted into the hole could possibly prevent chafing and ovaling out the hole... jus' brainstorming... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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