finally found out how this works. this internet is amazing. want to be able to share as much info. as i can. this meet has become something of it-self. I am working day and night to make changes and up-grades to meet expections for everyone. thank's to all for all your input. it really put's things in perspective........
krazy kevin
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
See Kevin? Even an old dog can learn a few tricks. I was checking out the meet on the future meets page. I really dig the logo. The food looks good too! I hope this thing works out well for you. It is a good idea to ask Heads to bring their musical instruments, too. We had a smoking "unplugged" session at Mars, and I just enjoyed one at Dixie as well. A meet tends to take on a life of its own. It is colored by every character in attendance as surely as those empty panels will be slung with 1-Shot. Have fun. Love...Jill
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
thanks jill. i am looking forward to this meet, so i can go on a vaction afterward. Mark Casey of Casey Signs came up with the logo. I couldn't be any happier. look forward to having pounce patterns made available for the meet.
krazy kevin
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Hi Kevin..Thanks for the e-mail earlier.
I wish you all the luck in the world to pull off a super meet. I am sure it will be one good one!!
If I or others were tough on you it wan't a personal attack. It was, in my case, a lack of understanding/communication of what your meet was all about.
As soon as I hear the words "new technology excluded" (my interpretation of things, not WHAT YOU SAID) my hackles came up!!
Sorry if I offended you Kevin..I am sure we'll meet some day and laugh about the silliness of the bitching, but at this point I am going to put my money on the Maritime Meet.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
that's great. any meet is good... the most valuable part is sharing and preserving. the true spirit of letterheads. maybe i should go to brians as well.
just kidding. krazy kevin
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
more information will be here today. for now, i am working with W&B gold leaf out of Chicago to possibily have them show the process of hand beating-gold. this is something i would like to see. i understand the gold starts out 1"x1", then after 18-20 hour's of beating, there is a sheet of gold-leaf waiting to be used.
reg. form should also be ready a little bit later today
so sorry for the delay. I am getting 100% commitments as i type. so for now, what is posted should be what is happening. i am getting excited to see so much knowledge with so many bruthers of the brush.
also, our flyer has been posted in the future meets. thank's.......... krazy kevin
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
... Before the internet, the Letterhead movement was a very different thing than it has now "evolved" into. These days there is this site and its rabid readers who represent the "new" way that meet info gets (and is expected to be) distributed. ..as you have noticed.
... The original Letterheads gathered to share "lost" techniques and designs in an effort to preserve these methods of bygone sign eras . Now, technology has taken over signmaking, and the original "ideal" has changed. Many newcomers to the sign biz and the "internet" Lheads are aware of very little about the sign realm beyond the modern technological aspects of it. This is why people have gotten hostile (to you) over your brave (yet cool) concept of an "old fashioned" styled meet.
...So now apparently. any meet host has to (appear to) include something for stick on jockys, or they may feel excluded and get all worked up. ...Not that anyone at meets is actually doing stick on lettering at a meet. Most everybody who attends ends up having fun with paint anyway.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
I've seen vynull at most meets. Sometimes it's a paint mask someone is using for glue-chipping or fancy effects like Superfrog teaches, or doming from Homer the Domer.
Modern technology is a necessary evil to be sure, but if "lickie-sticky-letterheads" attend a live meet, boy do they catch fire when they get their hands on some paint. Even if it is learning a faux finished background for an "instant sign".
It's all about the learning, and the sharing, and the fellowship and cameraderie. Everyone can benefit from attending a live meet, whether it's picking up some new techniques, buying some good books and brushes, learning layout skills and pricing strategies, or even a feel-good talk by Dennis Gerathy. And yakking on this BB is the next best thing. Love...Jill
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
W.R.
I think what it all boils down to...is improving one's skills and broadening one's horizons as a signmaker. (Or airbrush illustrator, or gilder, or striper)
The end result. Better work.
A good sign, is the result of good design skills. These skills include use of color, typestyles and negative and posative space, among other things.
Good designs can be achieved with a quill, a #2 pencil, a mouse or a sharpie marker.
I'm not going to hijack Kevin's post, and lead it in a different direction, but you seem to have a very narrow point of view regarding the trade. Not all people that work with computers and vinyl are "jockeys" or hacks. No more than all signmakers that work with paint are superior. They are two of many mediums we use.
Truth be known, I probably would view Kevin with a little more respect, if he had stuck to his guns about this being a "computer-free meet". I've said it many times, that a man needs to have convictions. He was dead-set on the no computer thing when I spoke with him last week...now he apparently is sucumbing to the pressure of the "pro-technology" crowd. Maybe he's just adapting and adjusting, which is also an admirable trait.
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
I just wanted to keep people posted on what I am working on. I am trying to set up a QuickBooks seminar. I talked with a company that only teaches QuickBooks and we are trying to work out details about having someone come in and teach how to set up QuickBooks for our industry. And maybe even a seminar for the more advance users. Would anyone be interested in something like this? They quoted me a price yesterday but I wasn't happy with it. The gal is going back to talk with her boss to see how they can scale it down. They wanted each class to be 3 hrs and I thought that was too long. I suggestd 2 hrs classes and maybe even 2-3 2hr. classes. I told her that I would post it on the board and see what the response is.
I am also working on seeing if I can get Home Depot to donate some pink stryofoam insulation. This would be for another workshop that I am working on. A workshop to learn how to route, carve, and paint this stuff so that it looks like stone. Stone for pillars, stone wall, decorations, etc. Is there any interest in this?
[ May 13, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Laura, I think Quickbooks training is an excellent idea for signshop owners. I also think trying to have a seminar at a meet is probably no so good of an idea. If Quickbooks wanted to sponsor a pre-paid seminar that just explains the basic features to help sell us on the product... that would be good... but the next level of training needed IMO is so different & personally catered to a specific shops needs... that as much as I would be willing to pay for QB training... I wouldn't pay anything to sit in a room full of others to get generic information... even if it doesn't cost "extra"... I wouldn't even pay attention because I don't think there is that much to say about it beyond the basics that would apply to everyone.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Hats off to you, Kevin.
Hosting a meet is always a grand undertaking and it takes a lot of personal time and effort. It seems like your really putting you heart and soul into this one to create an exceptional event, and joing us here seems to have fired you up even more...just like a live meet does.
How cool is that?
Welcome to Letterville! Rapid
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Doug, I had thought the same and didn't know what this training company could cover in such a short amount of time. I myself, am ready to ungrade from QBPro2002 to a new versions and have wondered which edition is best for our type of industry. If this company can't give us anything that we can work with, I do have an inside connection to QB's. My nephew is the head of the website design department. (IN his late 20's he had over a 6 figure income). So I imagine that he could probably give me a name to contact to see if I can get them to come in as a vendor/seminar (maybe just to explain the different editions so we can decide which is best for us)/ and hopefully donate some software.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
First off I would just like to say that the computer is just a tool, and a very rarely used one in my business (except for playing around online when I should be working) but valuable as can be when we do use it for production, and saves me amazing amounts of time.....just as bad signs are made with the "evil" computer there are equally as bad signs generated by the brush, open your mind to the tools, techniques and materials available to you and you can make amazing things, what a joy it is to learn new techniques to be able to make a larger variety of signs for our customers....
at my next meet I would rather see a description or short class or demonstration of estimate instead of quickbooks, however I have no personal preference as to what is shown at this meet as I feel that should be decided by the people who will be in attendance at this meet.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Laura, I think it would be a lot more beneficial to teach people the basics of accounting and taxes rather than some software that is suppost to do everything for them. The software is only as good as the person who set it up & the person running it. Having a background in accounting, I am constantly amazed at the amount of people (in all industries) who operate their own businesses and don't have the first clue about accounting.
ie. Sole proprietors of un-incorporated businesses take money out of the business as a DRAW, not as Wage Expense.
Also: there are also a lot of hack tax preparers out there who just take the numbers their customers give them without looking into their business & as a result these people lose out on tax deductions.
Edited to add: I'm with Dan on the estimate thing. If I hadn't been bitched at constantly to get it, I wouldn't have bought it. (Thanks Rochon) There was a learning curve & I took the time to go over all the materials putting in my costs but now I love it. I've heard others say they don't have time to learn it. Can't get them to understand taking a couple hours today to learn it will save you many hours doing estimates from here on.
[ May 13, 2004, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Kissymatina ]
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Here's my two cents: Don't waste $$ on a quick-books seminar. You MIGHT get 2 attendees. Nobody wants to sit and listen to something like that for 3 hours when there is PAINT calling their names (and gold leaf too) At least nobody I know.... Talks on bookeeping and pricing are always nice to hear, but better when they are coming from a fellow Head who knows the ropes of the sign biz. As for the insulation seminar, I want to paint a banner for that area: "The Itchy and Scratchy Show!" hahahaha Love...Jill
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Kissy, YOu are right abut the accounting. I believe if someone wants their business to start showing a profit, they need to know more about accounting. I still haven't given up on the QB's.
Jill, I too think 3 hrs. is way to long too. I have to disagree with "someone would rather paint". I would rather learn more about accounting thatn paint and then hire someone to do the painting I need. I don't want to hear someone in our business talk to me about accounting. I want to go to a professional.
I hope that we can agree to disagree.
Kissy, You made me think of another seminar that might be possible. I have a good customer that is a law professor at University of Michigan. Maybe I should look into having him talk on the difference of S-Corp, vs LLC, etc. My business is a S corp and now I am wondering if it should have been an LLC.
[ May 13, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Me personally, I would have no need for this in what i do. Maybe there are some that would. I don't know. I think we should leave the issue to a minimum.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Laura honestly no offense...but
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ not at a meet
just my opinion
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
I pay an accountant to do my books....I would rather PAINT...as would most of the Letterheads I know. Love...Jill
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura Butler: I don't want to hear someone in our business talk to me about accounting. I want to go to a professional.
Laura, perhaps you should consider how many of us 'heads also have accounting degrees. I'm not the only one.
Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
Laura I recommend that you stick to the basics of a typical meet. If I want accounting information I know where to go. Besides I agree with the others that if were going to do ANYTHING in the direction of running a business I would prefer someone in the same business to be talking to me.
I have a former co-worker who went to one of thses so called Quickbooks seminars that was sponsored by the software vendor and lets just say, she learned more about the software in one day of using it than she did in that seminar that our boss paid too much for. At that point I was VERY glad I didnt pay anything for the seminar when I had my previous business.
Furthermore I dont want some legal mumbojumbo person talking in legaleze to me. Its only going to be HIS/HER "opinion" anyway. Ask 5 lawyers the same question and youll get 6 answers, all being somewhat correct.
Why dont you try contacting Mark Smith from Estimate about maybe doing some sort of seminar and bringing demo and sale copies of his software, I for one have faith in his software. I tried the demo and liked it ALOT.
Try appealing to the masses instead of yourself and youll accomplish much more.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Dana says that there is just no accounting for me...
Wow! I didn't know they had pink insulation in the 30's! What the heck were the guys that built my house thinking? They could have been using that stuff instead of the "stuff" they did...
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Be nice..........
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
I just got of the phone with Ken Millar, he is teaming up with Bob Behoneck to give a Layout and Design seminar. This should be great to watch.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Bruce..quit it! LOL
I'm amazed that Dana hasn't kicked yer sorry butt to the curb yet!!!!!!!!
What is that insulaton "stuff" that that they used in the 30's to make fake stone anyway??? hahahahaha
Posted by Brian O'Prey (Member # 4063) on :
Apart from being an award-winning sign painter/artist/designer (not necassarily in that order) I also have a degree in astro-physics which I could give a seminar on. Who knows, in the future we might have to paint in the dark, wieghtless vacuum that is the void of space......and we will all need to know how the properties of paint change in such a hostile environment. However, if I need plumbing I call a plumber; if I need electrics I call an electrician; if I need building I call a builder. Guess who I call when I need accounting? As for pink insulation.....I prefer green. Well it's Friday afternoon, the sun is low in the sky and the bar closes at 0200. Time for a beer, some inspiration and then in the early hours gazing at the stars and planets, dreaming of putting the first sign on Mars. The moon is so yesterday.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Here is a tip for new brushes:
An old signpainter at the 83' Kansas meet said if I want my brushes to last longer, take a push pin, heat the tip and above the wire, push the pin into the ferrule creating what he described as drain holes. This allows the paint,thinner and brush oil to clean the hairs inside the ferrule better and prevents an air bubble from getting sealed in. This air bubble, he said, causes paint build up which eventually will cause the brush to split or lose hair. I have been doing that since and found the results to be true.
krazy kevin
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Thanks for the tip, Kevin! I don't have one of those new-fangled hydroponic autoclavish Joey Madden type thingies for cleaning brushes. Gonna do that ASAP. Good idea! Love...Jill
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Oh yeah Jill, those new fandangle hydroponic autoclavish whatshamacallit thingies have been saving my brushes for over 30 years, thats nu tecknoligie learnin to klean ya brushes huh?
Thank you Kevin for the email and history lesson about your father and grandfather I enjoyed the good read. I'd like to make your meet but am totally afraid of Masonic temples and big cities Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Actually I pay my accountant to clean my brushes. j.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Joey, no need to worry. I think once your inside you will be memorized. The building was built from 1922-1927. It is the world's largest. Some of the room's have never been touched since then. I believe there is somewhere around 1,045 room's in the building.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
Kevin, I think you mean MESmerized. Memorizing Joey!!!? hehehehe THAT could take a while!!
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
P.S. My Great-Grandfather also painted sign's. He started in 1927. Before that, he was a Window Dresser. Back then, there were 2 guy's responsible for a window. One a Dresser, the other a Sho-card writer. When the depression hit, the company had to lay one off. Since he already knew how to dress a window, he told them he could also do the lettering. So goes another story of how someone got into the business. I bet there are alot of stories like this one. We all had to start somewhere...
Another brush tip:
To straighten a bent brush, clean with laquer thinner, spin the brush out in your hand's, let dry about 10 min. Comb the hair's; which should ALWAYS be done prior to painting, then turn on a light bulb, around 75 watts, gently put the hair on the bulb, applying a little pressure with your thumb, than slowly pull in the opposite direction of the bent hairs. The heat will re-shape the hairs as you pull them while applying a little pressure. It should be corrected in maybe 2-3 pulls. When you are satisfied, comb the hair again and oil. That's it. This has been passed down in the family. Knowledge is great, but only if it's shared.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Sorry for any misspelling, my mind is faster than my finger's. Boy my hands are sore.
Posted by Brian O'Prey (Member # 4063) on :
You mean your fingers are faster than your mind.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Bri, I think my brain is closing down. I think I will go to sleep for now. To tired to stay awake.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Here is another update: I have enlisted Jay Elliot who has been involved in varnish for the past 20 years. He does all of our work when we need something varnished. This will be a very exciting aspect to the craft. I will continue to bring more information as it comes in. Thank You.
krazy kevin
Posted by Doug Bernhardt (Member # 1568) on :
Hi Kevin... Am looking forward to this meet and would be disappointed to see you thrown off track by a few nay-sayers. The idea is really a great one and I would have thrown my support in earlier but like you I also have problems trying to do simple things like login etc. Bill Pickett got it right a few notes back and with that and the Detroit Lettering School as a "moniker" and "mentor" for such an event you should stay the course. It's not difficult to predict this might be one of the great ones.!!!!! Before the earlier posts were deleted(as they should have been) there were some very disparaging remarks made about the original letterheads. Mark,Noel and the many others (new and old)etc. I took this as a personal affront as these people are friends of mine who not unlike you and I have difficulties with this medium, whether thru lack of time or interest. It was truly an inspiration, on their behalf,to have this wonderful organised un-organisation! I'm sure they had ventures like yours in mind when they left it all open for personal inspiration and interpretation. I'd also like to add that,it was also open for people like Steve here (with his web page) and Dave and Doc (with the magasine)to use the name "letterheads" without recrimination.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
I must admit I was kinda one of the nay-sayers on that other post. But I have been in contact a lot with Kevin recently thru emails, IMs, and a phone call today. He has the best of intentions. He is a lot like me in planning the 2002 International. He just wants to please everybody, and that in and of itself is an awesome task. There will be many of my heroes at this meet: Knecht, Behounek, Millar (those are all the names I can think of without scrolling back) and of course Kevin's dad, Wild Bill. Unfortunately today we live in an "instant" society- instant messages, websites, even instant signs. Many of the comments folks found offensive on the other post were not made by Kevin. Kevin wasn't "hip" in the ways of Letterville, but he has come a long way in one week about posting. I have seen him attacked in other posts, and it makes me SAD. That is NOT what Letterheads is about. It's about fellowship, sharing, teaching. Not bitching and behind-the-back gossiping. Let he who has NOT hosted an International throw the first stone. If you haven't done it, quit yer whining about costs and being mean to others. Some folks have YET to go to a meet! Attend a meet, any meet, be it Detroit or not. You will see that any meet takes on a life of its own. The people are what make the meet. Yes, it has to be organized...like clockwork. Yes, it is horrendously expensive to do. Yes, it will change your life, as a host and as a guest. I agree that most of us do use computers. But everyone can benefit from learning a few basic design principles. Not everyone paints. But we all share common jobs....designing, dealing with customers, working with colors, promoting our businesses. And one of the best things you can do for yourself as a signmaker is to attend a live meet. End of rant. Kevin....GOOD LUCK. Thank you for your hard work. Love...Jill Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Jill, Does this mean that we will see you in Detroit in Aug?
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
I'm promised to Maritimes Laura. But I am SO HONORED that Kevin has asked me to paint the registration banner. I want it to be the opus of my career. If I can swing it, I might go, but it would be a really last-minute thing. I have gone to so many meets this year that I feel I am neglecting my family. It is the "first day of school" week too. Love...Jill
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
Barb and I will be coming to Detroit. From where I sit, this meet is really starting to look good. Lots of oldtimers attending. I hear names like Al Grand, Ken Millar, Keith Kneitch and Bob Behounek to name a few. Just to see Wild Bill Betz after all these years will be a big thrill.
It's good to see my old friend Doug Bernhardt back in Letterville. I've searched through all the posts and I just can't find any discouraging remarks about Noel, Mark or any of the original Letterheads. What did I miss Doug?
To my knowledge, both Noel and Mark are good friends of Letterville. Both contacted us the day Rick Glawson passed because they wanted to express their own sence of loss with the rest of us on this BB. I can assure all that there is no way I would knowingly tolerate any negative remarks directed towards any of these guys.
Letterville is devoted to ALL Letterhead and PinHead Meets. Each host has the right to organize their meet in whatever manner they deserve. Kevin may have been a little slow getting out of the starting blocks, but he's in full stride now.
Detroit is centrally located. An easy drive for many. We're looking forward to seeing lots of Letterheads, both old and new. Bring your guitars!
[ May 17, 2004, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Here is another update: We will be doing a Theater Back Drop during the meet. I would like to send a big Thank You to Mark Casey for stepping up to be the project leader. I believe this is going to be a great piece, as well as a large one. If anyone has ideas, comments, suggestions, etc. please feel free to post. All the information we gather will help in making this a wonderful learning experience. Thanks
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
This is Judi -- not Kent. Kent is still too busy to help me set this up to use in my own name. (Although I spend all day, every day, on computers ... I am still a novice when it comes to bulletin boards and chat rooms. And, I am not supposed to get "too involved" because I have a tendency to allow that type of addiction to absorb too much time.)
Anyway -- Kevin, your theatrical backdrop idea sounds like both fun AND profit. We have been doing theatre for years. My Dad was a scenic artist and tech director, so I grew up "back stage". I met Kent 39 years ago when I needed someone to do design some stage lighting for a performance. Since Kent (as Tech Director) and I were among the founders of the local community theatre, our kids also grew up backstage -- hence Cassi's career. (For those who do not know, our daughter is a professional choreographer and show manager.)
Someone (?) way back on page one of all these "lines" asked how this meet could possibly increase profit. There are specific scenic skills that apply well to what we do ... such as an old method of painting a brick wall with a sponge that Kent used extensively at Jay Allen's meet. AND ... with the right training, the skills we already posess can apply to the stage and decorating industry and can open a whole new lateral market.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Has anyone cut a sheet of glass with scissors? If not, come on over to the Meet and we will show you how. It is a fairly easy task to perform, and you can attain a decent edge.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Kevin did you also know that not only can you cut glass with scissors (by placing the glass underwater) that you can also cut it into complex shapes by using a heated up wire formed to the shape you wish to cut the glass to and then submersing the glass in water and giving it a nice firm but not shattering little hit? Very nice for cutting circles, animals, whatever.....
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Hi Dan, I think maybe you should come to the meet and show me. That is one trick I have not heard. Very interesting.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Kevin first of all I would have scheduled my time to allow me to attend your meet if information was made available earlier...it wasn't and I took your meet off of my schedule, I hope it is a success for you. But here is how I cut glass with scissors: First of all I place the glass under water completely (the entire piece so you will have to find a tub or something that will allow you to do this), then with regular scissors, cut the glass justlike it was fabric or paper. It will work but is not the best way for my applications, I will describe another way in a moment that gives a smoother edge. But for just cutting glass down to size without a glass cutter this will work. For more smooother edges this is what I do.... exactly where you want the glass to breakp scratch the glass with the corner of a file or a sharp tool. If this piece of glass is going to be a shape other than just straight lines bend a piece of wire (I use a thin type of bailing wire and after scatching the glass with the sharp object I "trace" that etch with the wire) Heat the wire until it is red hot(I use a little butane torch that came with the startup doming kit) and lay it over the etch I previously made. Place the glass in cold water just deep enough to come to a level with the wire, but not covering it. The glass breaks cleanly. This method rarely fails to break the glass cleanly, right where you want it broken. SO here are my "secret" tricks given out freely....so have fun with them and practice before you try these for a job with the only piece of glass that you have as there is a little finesse needed....but not much. Mr.C (I mean Dan) (that one was for you Doug, and in fun...honestly) But I really am pretty creative....lol
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Dan, could I cut 1/4" thick glass using the methods you described?
I've been thinking about playing around with some glass fusing and slumping.. I've got a couple kilns (for pottery) and glass just laying around everywhere, so why not?
Edit: I also wanted to mention for anyone going to the meet, if you can arrange for an extra day or two in Detroit, you might want to check out the Henry Ford Museum & Greenfield Village. I went to Detroit in February and went to the Museum with a buddy. We spent an entire day, a very long day, in the museum checking everything out and ended up not having time to check out Greenfield Village. The museum is very cool, of course it has a whole bunch of cars and really shows the history of the automobile (including a "greasy spoon" diner from the 50's), but it also has things like locomotives, stage coaches, airplanes, etc in the transportation area. They show the evolution of industrial equipment like power generators and old tools, including one of the actual power generators from one of Ford's factories - this thing is a GIANT. They even have an area where they have antique farming/agricultural equipment on display, and even furniture and old home appliances. It's just really cool to check out. One of my favorite exhibits is the Dymaxion House designed by Buckminster Fuller - dude was a genius - if there were more people like him around our houses today would probably be perched way above the ground on pillars like they were in the Jetsons cartoons and not to mention earthquake, tornado and hurricane proof because of their structures.
[ May 19, 2004, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
you bet you can, I however do not care for the scissor technique and use the etch and wire deal, but we do some strange things around here, if you want to pick my brain as or before you jump into that feel free to email me and I will give you some last minute tips, and I even have another method that I use for ReALLY complex shapes....and you get to use FIRE.....being the nutty MR.C artist I am you throw in fire into my working day and I am one HAPPY guy....you can't take the boy out of the man
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Dan, I have tried and tried to cut glass over the years and have never been able to do it right. YOu gotta come to Detroit and show all of us this trick. You might learn a new trick or two yourself.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Laura, I know I should try to make it to Detroit and have talked with Kevin about it as well, but I had to schedule around it...bummer for me, bummer I can't share in real life...but I will do whatever I can to teach anyone my little "tricks" you can always give me a ring before jumping into such a project and I will do what i can to help, I had a little chat with Kevin today and I think the two of us could baffle each other with tricks for ever....lol...(and for those just learning about the internet...Kevin....lol...is laughing on line) it is funny to me all that we take for granted that others don't know, I worked side by side with another longtime sign maker today and we were both looking at each other going WOW what a different way of doing things.....) but carving and crazy things with glass, look me up, I'm willing to help if help is needed....striker
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Pipes dammit be a man and cut that glass with a plasma cutter
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Hi Gavin. It sounds like you might know someone that can do this. Is there a way I might get some information on cost. I would like to see if they can cut letters and design's, what kind of software do they need from me, what sizes, etc. and if its not too expensive. This gives me an idea for a glass project. Thank's
krazy kevin
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
My Banner came yesterday! (already) I best get working on it. I want it to be good and dry before I roll it up to ship to the Motor City! Love...Jill
Posted by Greg McRoberts (Member # 3501) on :
Hey Dan,
How about a step-by-step with pics on the glass cutting that could be posted? I'd really like to find out more about it too.
Sounds cool.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
apparently everyone doesn't know about these little glass tricks....it is amazing what we all take forr granted as Kevin and I discussed, things we do everyday others have never seen, I will do a step by step but it will be a while (at least a month) until I have time to plan something out other than calming myself down and remembering to breathe as life is HECTIC as can be, let me know which techniques you'd like to see and I will do it...and maybe Steve could give me some max file size and I can edit it all together in motion and not just still photos....Kevin I am wondering if you were just to etch the glass on your Father's router table and then used my technique with FIRE (mans best friend) if you might get a clean break of glass letters...worth a shot, let me know if I can help striker
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
mental note: When I have a meet, if Dan is here, keep him away from everything flammable.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Fire! Fire! Fire!
Gavin, I don't have a plasma cutter yet! You will know when I do, the lights in N.O. will dim. Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Cheez-n-Crackers Batman! Next thing ya know, someone will bring up the subject of HOCKEY on this thread.... j.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Go FLAMES go!
Sorry...couldn't resist.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Dan says "FIRE GOOD" lol
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jillbeans: Cheez-n-Crackers Batman! Next thing ya know, someone will bring up the subject of HOCKEY on this thread.... j.
The last hockey game I went to was while I was living in St Louis, it was the Blues vs. Redwings. Those fans from Detroit take their hockey a little too seriously, I thought I had stepped into the middle of a Jerry Springer show.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Now you know how I feel. The Sign business has changed so much in the past 20 years. I like the Red Wings, but I love Signs more. Maybe that is why I come across the wrong way sometimes; I take my Art serious. We want to put on a great meet for everyone involved. I think on my end, I should relax a little and enjoy the unfolding of this meet, not take things to seriously, but enjoy the spirit of Letterheads.
It seems like this Internet has put me on the stage to respond to questions about intentions and character. I too want to win the Stanley cup, but for me that would be for Us hosting a gathering with fellow Letterheads to share, discuss, show, and just plain have fun learning. So wish us luck as we enter the arena of education: Detroit Int. 2004. Be a Team Player... Have fun... Kevin
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Kevin I just want to say "GOOD LUCK" and I also want to tell everyone that I had a "real" conversation with Kevin and often in the internet world it is hard for some of us to communicate you can not see the other guys or gals eyes, the tone of voice, body language etc., I apologized to Kevin personally for my initial feelings about his meet and now I am also apologizing publically for my statements as well, I can tell all of you that after my discussion with Kevin his intentions are only to host a world class meet, and share his tricks and do everything to ensure that the "secrets" of our craft are not lost....after our conversation I am confident that I have a new friend and should we ever land in each others towns I know we will look the other up for a cold one and a afternoon of showing off our work, So give the guy a chance he's not a bad guy, just new to this world of the internet..
Posted by Barbara Murrell (Member # 3879) on :
Well Folks, I'm not too good at this intenet thing which is why I have only just looked at this thread. But I am so glad that all seems to be working out and everyone is friendly again. Ah what a lovely world this is. Personally, I can't wait for this meet. It will be my first and it's costing me a good few bucks coming from the UK. But I KNOW it's going to be worth it. See you all there. Barb x
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Barb, What kind of things are you hoping to learn/see?
Posted by Barbara Murrell (Member # 3879) on :
Laura, I want to learn and see as much as possible about traditional sign painting. I just can't wait to see you all, even if I am a little nervous about it!! Barb
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
We had our another meeting today and will meet again in two weeks. We each have our own responsilibities and are trying to put together things that will make this meet unique, helpful, and hoping to give each participant something new that they can take home and think about/work on.
Other committe members will be posting more of whats coming up.
Please bear with us as our area of Michigan is having tremendous thunderstorm and tornado warnings. In my area, this has been going on for over a week and its hard to justify getting online during these electrical storms.
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Just talked with Judi Smith last night. She is going to be setting up a Business Room to do seminars on all different segments of business that pertain to us. During the course of our conversation she told me that Kent knows how to make ashphaltum (sp). So now I will be working on Kent to teach us how to do this. Anyone else want to know how?
[ May 29, 2004, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
I additionally would like to know specifics of what anyone would like to know about sign paints and varnishes. If I know ahead, I can be sure to get the raw materials there for demonstrating. I won't promise to do them all but I will try to get close. I am also interested in good clear digital close up photos of old containers of paint, varnishes, pigments and powders that I may not already have. I am putting together a nostalgia book of same.
Any help would be appreciated.
Posted by Judi Smith (Member # 4739) on :
OK -- First attempt to post under my OWN name instead of my husband's.
I promised the Detroit Committee I would coordinate a room where people interested in pricing, marketing, and accounting could come with questions, suggestions, etc. It gives spouses (like me) and other less graphic members of sign shops something beneficial to their part of the shop operation. Subject matter will be determined by interest. We can cover such subjects as "How to write a business plan" "What the loan officer wants to know" "Are you pricing for FUN or PROFIT?" "What are you PAYING to operate your shop?" and other forms of business management.
Anyone interested in attending OR teaching classes please let me know (either by post or by email) what specific subjects interest YOU.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Hello. I will be going to the Masonic tonight for more work, and will have more updates later. Kent I will have everything for you later tonight as well as for Judi. I think inter-mixing the Art end with the Business end is a good way for a better understanding of the prices we charge.
Kevin
Posted by Barbara Murrell (Member # 3879) on :
Hi All, Just a thought, but this is an International meet and maybe some of the business pricing stuff may not be relevant for those of us from overseas.
By the way Kevin, I have emailed you, but I am finding it hard to get the money to you for this meet as there is no easy way to buy dollars in cheque form (and in this technological age!!)What's the easiest way of doing this? Any suggestions ? looking forward to seeing you all. Barb
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Barbara, You can get an International Money order at some places. But I would suggest to you what I did when attending the Cork meet last year: Bring the Pound/Euro equivalent of US $$ with you when you fly over. At the airport are money-changing facilities....it was just easier for me that way. You'll be surprised to find out how valuable your money is! Just send Kevin your registration so that you can be counted, then pay at the door. (If it's OK with Kevin! ) love...jill
[ June 02, 2004, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Jillbeans ]
Posted by Mark Casey (Member # 650) on :
Kent, I have always been curious as to the difference between Window Spar Varnish, Quick Rubbing Varnish, and Fibroseal. I would love to see their chemical differences, common uses for each, and physical properties (drying times, toughness, mixability, acceptable surfaces, etc.).
What is Res-n-gel and Damar Varnish? I have both of these left over from a gold leaf workshop at Wild Bill's. I think the Damar was for making "embossed" patterns for burnished gilds reversed on glass, but I don't recall what Res-n-gel was used for.
It'd probably take a seminar to answer these questions, huh? That's OK, I can wait for the meet.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
BUMP
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Just got back from another committe meeting. Registrations are coming in...even got a bunch from overseas already.
After the meeting. Kevin took us over to one of (one of four I believe)the resturants owned by the caterer. We had lunch and I have to say that the lasgna that I had was probably the best that I have ever had. The rolls were to die for too. Everyone else all said that their meals were very good.
I can't wait. We are also going to have a contest that involves our T-Shirts that come in our packets. I don't think that I can say anymore except to say the contest has nothing to do with water. The contest is going to be soooo cool and there will be alot of laughter....not just for the winner.
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
Mark, probably take longer than the seminar time to really get into it but I will make sure I bring what I need for the topics.
Posted by Barbara Murrell (Member # 3879) on :
Hey Laura, The t-shirt thing sounds interesting! I am glad it doesn't involve water though!! The food sounds good too, Should I be glad that it's only 4 days so that my waist line does not expand too much? See you in August Barb x
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Did you get your hotel room yet? Which one are you staying at? I know the hotels would like to have people registered by July 1st so they can take a counting to see if they need to add rooms or take away a block of rooms.
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
Laura -- We have our hotel room and ... thankyou, Kevin -- $89.00 is a GREAT rate for a first class Marriott.
Posted by Judi Smith (Member # 4739) on :
The pricing that I "teach" at Letterhead meets involves how to calculate your OWN numbers -- with worksheets and formulas that will work anywhere for anyone.
As far as using standardized (national average) numbers from another country -- we reccommend experimenting with a factor, beginning with the exchange rate as a base, and then costing to refine that.
Posted by Barbara Murrell (Member # 3879) on :
Thank you Judi for your explanation, That really sounds good. I have great difficulty in working out my prices and trying not to diddle anyone, myself or my clients! This meet seems to get better and better. Barb
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Sarah, I am so glad that your business, Stain Glass Limited, wants to be a vendor at the meet. I can't wait to see the Angel Gilding. I hope the copper mirroring solution comes in time to bring it.
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
The flyer has been updated again with even more exciting things that will be going on at the Detroit meet. This one shouldn't be missed.
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
The more I work on helping get this meet going, the more excited that I am getting. As more older sign people sign up, I am starting to get the fever and get a glimps of the vision that Kevin has for this meet. I am seeing how important it is to pass the torch...so to say, onto the next generation ( and newbies, like me). There is so much info, expertise, and knowledge that will be lost if it isn't passed on.
So often in situation I am amazed when I search and search for an answer for a situation and can't find it on the web, talking to some greatly informed so and so, or blah, blah blah. Then I talked to an old time person and they say, "Oh years and years ago we used to do it this way..." or "we use to use this....". And when I take their advice/info and it works.
Am I the only one that enjoys talking with the older generation? There was an older gentleman up the road that never married and had no siblings. There were two stores and mile away and he owned one of them...being a little hardware, auto, etc. He had been born and raised right there. When he went into a nursing home, we went to see him. I didn't want to leave. His mind was shape as a tack. He talked for hours about our area, giving dates, times, birthdays and whatever it was like 50...75 years ago. I wish that I had taken a tape recorder as everything that he told us probably went with him to his grave.
This same thing happens each time an old sign painter dies and goes to the happy palette in the sky.
[ June 16, 2004, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Memorizing Joey!!!? hehehehe THAT could take a while!!
![[Applause]](graemlins/clap.gif)
![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
?