I have a customer that wants graphics on the back of there van window. The window has those lines in them that change the snow into water and then has this nifty rubbery piece on the back that wipes off the water.... nifty huh? well will vinyl put up with these conditions and has anyone had an experience with this that I can use to diswade him. thanks!!
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Install the vinyl on "inside of glass" over the defrost lines, and yes, my recomendation would be to apply them with Rapid Tac II.
We have large logos on the "outside" of rear window on 2002 4-runner (just to see if the vinyl would hold on) with the wiper swiping the snow off up here in Idaho, been on all winter, can't find any damage.
Roger Posted by dave parr (Member # 3868) on :
We could do an unofficial-official Letterville survey of customers. Sell as many of these jobs as possible and tell the customers they are participating in a survey. You will be glad to do the job for them if they will agree to let you know how the work holds up to the unforgiving & relentless conditions. Of course you would be happy to replace the work if it fails at the same cost as before, or more if they would like to use the very, very best of materials. We could then report in to the board with the unofficial results. The more the merrier!
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Just wondering, Roger....
Here in NH, with large rear window graphics, you can be pulled over and cited for "obsrtuction of view". Does that law apply in Idaho as well?
Also, although the vinyl held up, how did the wiper blade fare? I know how britle they can get in the cold and was wondering if they got damaged or notched?
Rapid
[ April 09, 2004, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
Posted by Jeff Spradling (Member # 1615) on :
Shane
I have several of those types of van windows lettered out there...haven't had one fail yet.
I just did a van for a customer on his new van...I took off the old lettering that I did...6 years old...looked like new.
I will say...in Signlab they have a feature that lets you round the corners...I usually round them .02" inside and outside...I think this really helps...I also clean with Rapid Tac then another cleaner(Paso) then Rapid Tac again...apply dry.
Good luck...Jeff Posted by Kathy Joiner (Member # 1814) on :
Shane, it holds up well against the snow in south Louisiana Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
and Roger, how are those hand painted pinstripes holding up in the Idaho snow? Gonna be 80º here tomorrow in Grants Pass and I would like you to call me if ya still have my number, any day after 5 pm.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Well now, let me answer all these here questions in order.
1- Ray, Where I live in Idaho they are pretty lax in local p.d., its a resort community. The wiper blade is fine as well as the graphic !
2-Jeff Spradling, why not take the bennefit of applying wet? you already went thru most of the method?
3- Joey, your "hand painted stripes" (on that same 4 runner) are as beautiful as the day you painted them, except where I scraped that damn tree branch last fall on one of my flyfishin trips in the high country. I'll try to give you a call next week when I have more time to chat, I did call and leave a message about 2 months ago!
Roger Posted by Jay Nichols (Member # 2842) on :
Um, if you install on the inside of the window, wont the defroster lines kinda muck up the look of your graphic?
I've done a fair amount of window tinting in vehicles, and I assure you that the heat from the defroster will cause the vinyl adhesive to separate from the glass and add more to the look than you ever wanted.
Edge sealing will help, but the best thing you can do is just tell em not to use the rear wiper.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
The only problem I have ever had with a rear-window graphic is the time I cleaned the window beforehand with ArmorAll window cleaner. BIG no no! Love...Jill
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Jay, "window tinters" have been applying film over these defroster lines for as long as they have been out, I might ad they apply the film wet.
If you have experience with film comming loose from the heat of the defroster lines, then the film wasn't bonding corectly in the begining.
Try it with Rapid Tac II, try it for free, e-mail your street address to; mail@rapidtac.com for samples.
Roger Posted by Gene Uselman (Member # 2508) on :
In Minn-e-so-ta you have to have either a rear window or left and right outside rear view mirrors- so no obstruction problem. Gene
Posted by Jeff Spradling (Member # 1615) on :
Roger: Please explain the benefits of wet application to me.
Jeff Posted by Jay Nichols (Member # 2842) on :
Roger, I stand by what I said. Vinyl is opaque and looks like doodoo when applied to the inside of a vehicle window with a defroster element.
I've been "window tinting" for about 15 years and my experience includes hundreds of vehicles, boats, houses and businesses. My customers pay me money for this, so I guess they are satisfied with the finished product. The heat generated by a defroster will delaminate adhesive from ANY vinyl or window film if it is left on too long- it has nothing to do with application method. I've never had a job come back because of adhesive failure, but I usually unplug the element to save the film, and it helps to educate the customer. 8-} I dont do as many vehicles as I used to-- at 6-4/250, my American-made frame is not compatible with many of those Japanese-made back seats.
Keep your free samples, thanks, soapy water has worked fine for me for the last 20 years- I'll stick with it.
Shane- the defroster will not affect anything applied to the outside of the glass, but that wiper might cause small corners to come up or leave scratches if it drags a piece of sand across the vinyl. Jeff's suggestion about rounded corners is good advice. If possible, use type without sharp serifs to help keep the job looking good for longer.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Jeff, first off the micro beads of adhesive (as coated on back of film) must be "burst" by application method. This "bursting" is why its called "preasure sensitive", the application fluid (mine anyway)softens the shell on these beads, making it easier to burst, allowing a more complete bonding of all adhesive, instead of just a percentage. In positioning of graphics there are a number of ways used, the hinge, or multi applyers, speedpress,etc., the simpelest method is to float film into premarked place,squeegee,and get 90 second bonding time.
Cleaning with household cleaners, window cleaners, paint solvents, is usually why graphics don't stay bonded "completely" for long term, you obviously know this already. Being able to apply a 4ft.X4ft. graphic by yourself in just 8 or 10 minutes complete (include remove trans tape)even in very cold temp. is part of the benefits of wet application with Rapid Tac or Tac II. Its not going to happen the way I describe above when using soap and water.
Roger Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Jay, obviously your unwilling to try any new type product for old type process, well thats your perogitive, but when you tell us of using soap and water in the same sentence with poor bonding, well they do go hand and hand Jay.
I started applying preasure sencitive films in 1965 (and yes, people paid me for it, just like you)with soap and water, it wasn't untill 1987 that I first used Rapid Tac, that changed the way I applied films, made my job easier, longer lasting and better quality with less effort.
You don't wanna try, fine with me !
Roger Posted by Jay Nichols (Member # 2842) on :
I never said anything about poor bonding- I said heat from defroster elements will cause adhesive failure. YOU suggested applying vinyl to the inside of the glass, over the defroster. I think this is bad advice because of the resulting look.
I never said I havent tried your products- I have. They are not acceptable for window film apps because of their evaporation rate.
I never said I am "unwilling to try any new type product"-- another assumption on your part.
[ April 11, 2004, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nichols ]
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Jay...I don't doubt your experience in applying window tints. I don't do that at all. But I do have new Chev that has tinted windows, including the rear window, which has defroster wires on it.
The reason I was not hesitant to have this on the new car was that my previous van, that I owned for 3.5 years had window tinting applied, including the rear window. It also had the defroster wires. In the time I owned it there was absolutely no deterioration or lifting or anything araound those wires. And trust me, here in Ontario Canada, those defrosters get used a LOT in the winter.
Now, I HAVE seen many rear window jobs on vehicles that looked like absolute crap, but my experience was very good.
I guess it depends on the company doing the work, the employee doing the work and the methods used to do the application.
As a side note. The new car, for some reason, had aftermarket tinting done before I bought it (I assume that someone previous had requested it and the then the financing fell thru or something) Anyway the rear window, along the top had a kinda honeycomb design and the tint was not applied correctly and looked like hell. I refused to accept the car that way and the dealer sent it back to the original tint company, who said it was as good as it was going to get. So they turned around and sent it out to "Tint King" and had them remove and replace the tint on the back window. THEY did a perfect job!
Just shows you, I guess, that as I said the individual company, installer, methods must make a difference.
[ April 11, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Good input Dave !
Roger
Posted by Jay Nichols (Member # 2842) on :
Hey Dave, I totally agree with you-- proper matls, technique and attitude make all the difference. I didnt mean to sound like all adhesive is gonna separate, in fact, I doubt if any of it would if it's applied properly and the driver remembers to turn off the switch. I've always suspected this is where the failure occurs- when the defroster is turned on and left on for an extended period. Most high-end film manufacturers offer 'lifetime' warranties on their films these days because the matl, especially the adhesive, is formulated to hold up for a long time. Your experience with the slag border is a good example of how different people deal with the same problem. That stuff can ruin the look of a job- if not applied properly the relief holds the film off the glass and creates a cloudy look that is totally unacceptable. Obviously, your guys at Tint King cared enough to do the job right.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Jay, I'm confused? when I said adhesive will hold, you said I gave "bad advise".
When Dave states his experience with it holding for over 3 years, you say "I agree Dave, if good material is used it will hold up".
Maybe because "I" said it, its bad advise ? huummm
Roger Posted by Jay Nichols (Member # 2842) on :
It's obvious that you are confused. Take a minute to READ MY WORDS and try not to be in such a hurry to twist the thread into an ad for your products.
My comment about your bad advice referred to this:
quote: Install the vinyl on "inside of glass" over the defrost lines
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
On the contrare my friend, I invite YOU to re-read YOUR responce to Daves' post.
You are in total agreement with that which you totaly disagreed with me ! Now, how will you spin your way out of this, prey tell ?
Roger Posted by Ryan Ursta (Member # 1738) on :
Regardless, If your trying to install window graphics on the inside of the window you might as well not do it at all. Most windows are dark enough that you can't read it from the inside anyway (especially if you are using more than just bright colors). I take my chances with the windshield wipers. I havent had a failure yet. Clean with alcohol and install dry.
Posted by Desire Rusovsky (Member # 2876) on :
This winter I had several vinyl litterally loosing all bond on rear winshields. Not because the viper blade bet because of the snow. If the snow stay several hours on the windshield, when melding it simply infiltrate beetween the vinyl and the glass. More and more car manufacturers use selfcleanning windowglass. And my vinyl provider said the problem incrased significally this winter. I accept to put vinyl on rear windows but I decline all garanties of durability.
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