Many moons ago I purchased the first Gerber Maxx. It made sense at the time...the Edge was a proven technology making signmakers a bunch of money. Edge technology that extended beyond 11.8 inches seemed at grasp. Well, there were some issues yet to be resolved...Gerber and my distributor Advantage stepped up and made things right. I have been extremely satisfied with the Edge II as a replacement. I have and continue to make good profits with the Edge II. Lately, I have purchased some Maxx prints from a Michigan signmaker which were excellent in terms of print quality and lacking any perceptable banding. Now, I see other thermal mfrs...(Summa)_ offering wide format thermal at a cost less than an Edge II, Gerber has also lowered the price of the Maxx. Long term ink printers are commonplace...Is this a good time to re-try the wide stuff?...or is there technology on the horizon that makes thermal foil technology obsolete. By the way I drive past a Maxx print (maroon process) on a banner and a back lit sign face that I did 4 years ago that still looks great.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
What type of work would be doing with it Tony?
Posted by Tony Lucero (Member # 1470) on :
Bob, basically much of the stuff I do with the EdgeII, but would now open up to banners and one piece wide format vehicle graphics. In spite of the success many have with paneling Edge 11.8 inch panels, I do have customers who object to the visible seams. To be honest though, I find myself bringing up this issue to my clients, who might not otherwise have any reason to even consider it as an issue. I just don't want to mis-lead anyone...or have to explain it after the fact. I now find myself doing even some yard signs with the EdgeII...today I did two process prints (18 x 24 inch)for two-sided sintra yard signs. $55 each plus $22 each for the H-frames. It saved me a bunch of time...my son figured out the vinyl prints cost around $13 per sign...if he's right...I'm happy, and more important ....the customers happy.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Tony,
Outsource some wide format work and see what kinda response you get from your market before committing to an $800/mo lease.
Maybe check out some of the solvent printers too.
I have print samples from the SummaChrome, EdgeII, ColorCAMM (PC60 and 600), and Roland's Soljet. In my particular market (vehicle and jetski graphics), the only one that has acceptible output (as deemed by my customers and everyone else I show these samples to) is the Soljet because its prints are more like a photo and not grainy at all unlike the thermal options.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Tony, I don't realy have any answers to your initial question, but if I can take a tangent for a minute, I realize cost of living in your area is a factor, but even if you mean $55 each side... I would suggest that may be a bit low. If you mean $55 for each 2-sided sign, I really wonder if you couldn't get more. Even for the cheaper substrate of a standard 18x24 aluminum blank (no cuts to make) I can't justify two 18 x 24 prints going for less then a pair of 12x24 magnetics. If I am doing 4 or 5 signs, I might do them for $80 to $100, but 1 or 2 signs I would be comfortable pricing them at $125 on aluminum & possibly more on Sintra.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
I am with Doug on the pricing Tony. I live in the Detroit area like you, and the pricing is way too low. Even a simple vinyl lettering job would go for more than that.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Tony, I would follow Mike's advice and look into solvent based inkjet. I feel solvent is the way to go when compared to thermal. Especially if you're looking into wide format printing. I don't believe that there's much room for improvement with the thermal printers. From what I experienced with the technology, it just won't be able to keep up in terms of quality, speed and long term durability of the prints. With inkjet or solvent printers, there's the demand for the technology in many markets, not just sign making. That demand will drive the manufacturers of these machines to make them faster, cheaper and more reliable than the other choices. That being said, I feel, neither technology currently matches the quality and durability of 3M Scotchprint graphics. I'm sure that will be changing real soon though.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Brian W (Member # 42) on :
Hi Tony,
I recently bought my second large format printer... the Roland Pro 2 EcoSol printer. It has been great. I just printed 3 rush 4x8 signs (because the Prime Minister is coming to town tomorrow) and it took 12 minutes per sign to print. The Ecosol ink is not near as smelly as the true solvent machines and it has a three year exterior life unlaminated. We do wraps with this printer and the output is amazing.
We're printing on vinyl as cheap as 25 cents a square ft. for short term signs but also print on high performance vinyl for vehicles.
I had a pc 60 thermal printer and would never go back to thermal printing. I know you probably can't compare the pc 60 to the Edge.
It is also a great cutter so you could get away with one machine if you had to.
Worth looking into.
Brian Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
There is a lot of other considerations to consider.
I hear if you dont use those inkjets every day the ink clogs in the heads, is that true?
also what about colormanagement and color consistancy? how do you that use and have inkjets handle these problems?
I see so many benefits for thermal still to inkjet but I am open minded to learn the Benefits to inkjet.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hey Bob, All very valid points. Although it sound like these are concerns brought up by a Baby food sales rep. Clogged heads can be a problem if you don't maintain the machine. Our machines sit idle 2 days every weekend and sometimes longer. When I'm ready to use them again, I print a prime and they're ready to go. Our older printer, an Encad Pro36", that sometinmes sits for a month at a time and still no problems. Color management is fairly simple if you understand and use it correctly. Since I took a class on color management, I've reduced color errors by at least 90%. The 10% that I've been unable to avoid is because of bad client files. There is and and will be a market for thermal printing for several years. Short run decals will keep those machines running for some time. However, once solvent inkjet printers get the minor bugs worked out(like printing white ink), thermal, vinyl and perhaps some other technologies will be dead.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
The Prime Minister is coming to town? What does he do, check to make sure you've primed everything?
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Checkers, nope not from any Gerber reps, I've even heard the head clogging from signmakers.
As far as color management goes I've experienced that first hand myself. I have a lot ot learn but time to learn it in, Thermal is very much alive, It's mostly the hype from the Inkjetsters themselves or the manufacturers that say that thermal is dead.
Again it will depend on what type of work will be done, Vinyl will not go away just like hand lettering, it may not be the main stream but there will be incidences that will require both.
It will be a mile stone when inkjet prints white ink, then I guess the next challenge will be metallic ink, maybe mylar ink or signgold or something like that
I am interested in the different markets available like your post on the faltbed post. It just frustrates me the way the industry is going and the rapid change in machines fueled my the manufacturers. Not to mention the hype.
[ April 04, 2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Tony Lucero (Member # 1470) on :
Checkers, good points...I have purchased prints from another sign shop with the Arizona and those prints are very good and his machine is several years old. I tend to agree with you that thermal may be losing its unique claims for durability. Now I see Summa is selling the wide format machines for less than a EdgeII. This is the age old problem of investing in technology...it becomes obsolete (or close to it) before you've paid it off. Thanks all for the input. BTW around here, "most" customers don't even want to spend $50 on an 18 x 24 two sided yard sign. If I can sell two at $55 plus $22 each for angle iron H-frames...AND bang them out in a half hour...I'm O.K. The time that we are going to be printing out most of our flat outdoor panels is coming. I know one big company who is printing out golf outing signs directly on coroplast on a huge Vutek during otherwise idle time. Dont know what they're selling them for..but the images were photo quality with the special effects you cant do with vinyl.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Bob, it must depend on the type of printer in regards to clogged heads .... I am familiar with one model that constantly (every x amount of seconds)spits a micro amount of ink through the heads and into a catch basin to keep the heads from clogging. We're not talking huge ink waste...and it's almost imperceptible by the human eye as to the amount it sprays...
Still, occassionally, even during use the heads will occassionally need to go through a cleaning process.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
or signgold or something like that ![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)