Well My Big sign Project is coming along nicely. I now have 4 4'X 16' dibond panels mounted to an aluminum frame. Time to paint them. I have read all posts on painting dibond, but I have a few specifics questions to ask about certain products and my lack of indoor painting space.
Dibond sent me a paint spec sheet on what procedures to use for each different manufacturer. Because of where I am and the ability to purchase from in town and have colors mixed locally. It leaves me with a couple of choices.
One is Sherwinn Williams DTM, "industrial and marine" waterborne paint, it requires the dtm primer and then the dtm basecoat. It is very economical in price and probably can be rolled on with no problem or sprayed, bad news is I don't know anybody that has used it.
The other option is a auto enamel by matrix? It's what the local supplier carries, it is more expensive but probably more proven as well. Should just require scuffing then spraying.
My situation- because of the size of the panels if I spray them it would have to be outside, I have no problem with that but my neighbors might. I have already checked with local body shops and nobody will do it for less than $2000 ( not in the budget)
Anybody have any experience with these paints or recommendations for others, I really need to get these painted soon and want as good a finish and product as I can get in my current situation.
Thanks In Advance
Dave
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
i've scuffed dibond with 3m scotch pad and used one shot plenty of times...haven't had problems yet..knock on mdo.
Posted by Tasmus (Member # 445) on :
yeesh....I have several dibond panels in the store right now---scuffed and painted with one shot/chromatic by roller then cured with fades then sprayed on....a final coat of CLEARSHIELD UV is coming next....I have no reason to think that this combo wouldn't work--anyone out there got tales to tell to the contrary?
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dave Levesque: I have already checked with local body shops and nobody will do it for less than $2000
This is why I know how to do so many things. For that figure you can purchase the premium material needed PLUS a fine HVLP gun & respirator AND a very nice compressor. When you're done you will have gained an education in addition to the new gear.
However, if you only need solid color background, spraying is not necessary and won't be appreciated from sign-viewing distance. My personal preference is to scuff the Dibond and roll on an alkyd enamel, knocking down the roller marks immediately with a foam brush. For longer UV and gloss I usually add acrylic urethane hardener from the Auto Paint store. <Respirator>. Next day it is rock hard - looks and wears very close to automotive.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
I used DTM a few years ago on one project and was not too impressed with the paint. It was so prone to scuffing that it was hard to handle the sign without leaving a mark. That was my only experience with the product so it may not be a good one to base your decision on. Personally, I would be more trusting of an auto paint.
Alkyd enamels are more prone to chalking and fading than the automotive paints but are much easier to apply by roller. Using the urethane catalyst may get you the best of both worlds.
Posted by Dave Levesque (Member # 4374) on :
Very good Ideas guys, I like the idea of adding a Urentane hardner to some one shot.
What type of mixing ratio would you recommend and can you mix large amounts at a time or just do it as you go.
Secondly does that mean I need to or not to, use it on other colors for borders that will go on top of the basecoat or does it not matter at all.
Again pretty new to the whole painting thing, wish I were trying it on something a little smaller. (little stressed) Oh well, by the end of it all I will have learned a lot more than I knew when I started. Thanks for all the help. Couldn't do it without ya.
Dave
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
One Shot’s instructions on the hardener are at the following link:
Some of the folks here who use it all the time will surely chime in to give you pointers. One of several reasons for hardeners, at least in automotive acrylic enamels, is that it changes the recoat window, allowing you to second coat at any time without lifting. For example, many acrylic enamels must be recoated within a few hours or after a couple of days. Repainting too late for the early window or too early for the later one may cause the paint to lift–ask me how I know. Not reading or following instructions can get expensive.
Gavin Chachere, who frequents this board, has probably forgotten more about auto paint than I will ever know. He can likely steer you through what is locally available.
I drove through San Angelo three weeks ago. I could have “helped” you and then deducted my Big Bend vacation as a business trip. Of course, you would not have let me near your sign after telling you my experience with DTM and botched recoat instructions. This is how NOT to do it...
I wish you the best on your project.
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Dave the Matrix acrylic enamel is quality stuff and you can roll it just like you would an alkyd enamel....it will start to set up a bit faster than an oil based alkyd but you can get the technique down with a little practice....definitely do that b4 you attempt to glass out a 12 ft panel. I know someone here and i forgot who it was catalyzes benjamin moore oil alkyd...gonna be for the most part like using one shot or bulletin enamel,at least the couple of times i tried it. You should be able to get something like that mixed in any color you want more or less and be more comfortable working with it.....as long as its a solid color,if its a metallic trying to roll it on panels that size will result in a striped zebra blotchy look.
For an alkyd or an acrylic enamel the ratio of paint to catalyst you want is 4:1 or 1 part catalyst to every 4 parts paint..usually works out to about 20-25% of volume...adding diff temps of reducer instead of just dumping mineral spirits or some other pretty much 1 speed reducer in it will give you more open workable time. You need to have the catalyst in the right ratio to make sure it doesnt set up too soon or too far down the road...dont "eyeball" it or guess...buy a few graduated mixing cups and/or paint sticks from a paint store,they're cheap enuff and the paddles are metal...wipe em after and reuse em. When you roll it with the catalyst in it heres a tip...toss the black foam roller in the trash b/c the stronger solvents will make the black foam split at the seam,use a short nap mohair roller and you wont have to deal with as many roller marks and bubbles.
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Ok and after clicking David's link to one shot i see they recommend 10% catalyst,hard to keep up with everybody's tech info anymore.....i recommended 4:1 since thats pretty much universal across the board for alkyds and acrylics... i emailed Frank at 1shot this link so he can explain why 1shot says 10% instead of having me try to do it since we're into diff paint brands here. Thanks David.
Posted by Dave Levesque (Member # 4374) on :
So Gavin would you recommend I try the Matrix and attempt rolling it or stick with the alkyd enamel route. I have a lot scraps from fabrication on the spanels so I do have some dibond sheets to practice on.
I will call the local Ben Moore and check on your other suggestion tommorow. I will also wait to see if Frank checks in from one shot.
David
Yeah it would have been great to meet you when in town and pick your brain a little on the project. Maybe Next Time?
Dave
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Dave ...don't take this the wrong way but 4 4x16 panels prob isnt the best time to try to cram both practice and new method...for some reason i read this the first time as you having one single panel ...if it was a single 4x8 or 4x12 i would say yeah go for it and its not that hard once you cross the learning curve & get used to it..... but double that 4x8 times 4 is one hell of alot more surface area to cover having never done it b4 and maybe sand down to redo if something goes wrong ....sounds like you have more experience with the ben moore types so on a project this size i would stick with that and practice with the acrylic enamel after this one is done...kinda like deciding to do a candy job instead f just shooting the car white...not to mention there are far more qualified people on here to be giving sign fabrication advice than me...i'm just chiming in on paint.
Posted by Murray MacDonald (Member # 3558) on :
I've had very good results with Ben moore Impervo alkyd...lightly scuff and apply with 1/8" foam roller. Sticks like sh't to a blanket and shines like the lust in the eyes of a teenage boy.
MUR
Posted by Frank Manning Jr. (Member # 2699) on :
Dave...I'd like to throw my two cents in....What ever system you use...follow the manufacrurers instructions. Using activated alkyds or activated acrylic enamels will give you good product life. As far as 1Shot is concerned, we recommend "up to 10% hardner by volume". Using more than this could cause product break down. For backgrounds, I would suggest 5% 4007 hardner (20 parts paint to 1 part hardner) and some 6002 High Temp Reducer to improve flow out after rolling. This will "kick" the paint dry time. You will be able to put down your next colors the next morning. The hardner will "cure" the paint film from top to bottom at an equal rate as opposed to drying from the top down. If you have any additional questions...give me a call at 914-672-7482
Posted by Dave Levesque (Member # 4374) on :
Well I did some checking around and while at a local paint store ran into an old friend of mine,(paints for a living). Turns out he has been spraying kitchen cabinets, doors, and all sorts of other stuff.
He has a shop we can paint them in and a nice compressor. He said his guns are a little iffy for a fine finsih, but said if I could get a gun which I will keep anyway he would help me get em painted and make sure we had a great finish.
What it cost well I have to help him move some cabinets across town. Way better than the $2000.00 I was goin to have to pay a body shop.
Soo... it looks like I will be using the Matrix Auto Enamel and spraying it with an experienced painter and not in my back yard.
For future reference and smaller panels, I will probably try using the alkyd enamels and the one shot as Frank Suggested.
I will keep you posted and post some pics when the project is done. Thanks for all the help and advice. I know about 300% more about painting dibond panels than I did when I first started.
