I have a customer that needs to re-do an entire fleet of semi and trailer rigs with logo and lettering. The problem is, he is very unhappy with the results he has been getting from the vinyl used by his previous supplier. He has a large 4' X 2' logo on the back of his tankers, he hauls petroleum products so there is a variable temperature issue with the tanks. They are aluminum tanks. We are located in the midwest so there are weather temperature issues from below zero to above 100 degrees throughout a year. Plus with the mag-chloride they are using on the roads he is pressure-washing these tanks and trucks about three times per week.
My question is, what material would you recommend for the longest lasting result? He is upset with the decals he has peeling off and looking bad within a year's time. I have recommended 3M reflective which I would burn the logo into with an Edge. Also, he has a concern with the fact that a 2' tall logo would have to be paneled and there is just one more edge that the pressure washing would affect. I have even offered to do one logo for free to test it, but he doesn't want one looking different than all the rest and wants assurances up front that it will last.
What would you do?
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Vickie, I'm Speaking from Experience on this one, Do not use an Edge printed decal printed on Reflective, It will not last! The reflective itself might last, but the print will not, it will fade within a year. If you want to use relective then I'd lay down some premium vinyl first, they overlay the reflective on top.. this is for removing the decal down the road, cause if you don't put a layer down first, then you will curse the reflective when it's time to remove it. I had to repair 3 tankers using the Print on reflective situation, and they all faded within year.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Vicki,
Hmmm, a little scary I must admit. My first reaction is that if he hauls petroleum products and any of these petrochemicals come into contact with the edge of ANY decal, you have the recipe for vinyl failure.
The petroleum products can and will first attack the exposed adhesive on the edge, or cutline perimeter of the decal and work it's way inward over time.
If the petroleum product never comes into contact with the surface of the rig/trailer where the decal is to be applied, then you shouldn't have a problem UNLESS he is using a chemical cleaner solution that affects the vinyl adhesive. If the cleaner he uses is strong enough to remove petroleum products then it may attack adhesive of your vinyl as well.
Posted by Catalin Dretcanu (Member # 4136) on :
Hi! I recommend you to try 1640 ORACAL vinyl for print. I use this type of vinyls for cars and look good after 2 years.
Posted by Steve Racz (Member # 4376) on :
Vicki,
Not a solution for the digital prints, but as far as the edges of the vinyl lifting... how about if you sealed the edges of the vinyl with a Seal-It pen (like you do when you apply Sign Gold)?
This may not be practical because of the quantity of vinyl but it's a thought.
Thanks, Steve
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Vicki,
This sounds to me like this guy is just looking for a scape goat. Did you do the other trucks? Why is he now coming to you? It may be that the other guy told him upfront the life span of the materials with the extreme beating its getting. and most likely the other guy kicked him down the road.
As stated above DO NOT use edge prints without gerber's uv/chemical guard. as a matter of fact call Gerber scientific themselves and get documents showing the limits of all materials.
Even thier 3M/Gerber HP vinyl has limitations when it comes to vehicle graphics, BECAUSE of the extreme attacks from the truck wash chemicals, road salt, harsh weather you name it.
Do your homework girl, dont just take my word or someone elses word call the material manufacturers and get tech sheets, find out exactly what this guy is using on his lettering and offer no warranty beyond the manufacturer, and make a note to him that your labor is NOT gauranteed. In final if you do this job make sure the customer is well aware of the limitations, actually staple the tech sheet to his forehead, make sure he reads it and get his signature that he has read it.
I smell a rat on this one! a big FAT rat!
[ March 22, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Suelynn Sedor (Member # 442) on :
Vicki,
I attended a seminar at a letterhead meet in Banff. The guy talking about frog juice said he used it on tank trucks and covered the whole graphic overlapping the edge slightly. The frog was supposed to protect the vinyl from the different chemicals the truckers use.
I have not tried this myself, but thought you may be interested. I think it has to be brushed on fairly thickly.
Suelynn
Posted by Vicki Powell (Member # 3796) on :
Thank you so much for all of your replies.
No I didn't do the trucks previously. I'm a long time friend and he would like to give me his work. We're trying to find a solution to his dissatisfaction with what he has been doing for the past couple of years.
Here's a picture of the logo an as you can see, it would really be nice if I were able to edge print it. Thanks for the advice about the fading though, I guess I'll have to rethink that part of it.
I will definitely call and talk to Gerber about the technical specifications of the products.
By the way, this does NOT have to be reflective, I was just thinking that the reflective would last better.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Especially since this is a person that you do "friendly" business with and as friends we try to give these types of customers a better deal, why I don't know (what are we waiting to get rich by doing business with our enemies?) I would first tell you that this is a BIG EXPENSIVE project and you need to price it accordingly, ANY project that will take this type of constant abuse, rolling down the highway constantly, pressure washing regularly, and coming into contact with petroleum products, and temperature changes is going to need to be replaced and repaired CONSTANTLY. There is no great answer or product for these above CHALLENGES. If your customer wants to look professional all of the time (and that is a reasonable request) you are going to have to consistently repair and replace every graphic that you do as needed, no other options. So you need to decide which you are more comfortable replacing a vinyl graphic or a painted graphic, and if you are proficient at both choose which ever one is the easiest, fastest, and most profitable for you to repair and / or replace as you are going to be working on these on a regular basis (or someone else will be.
I would also write your contract accordingly and note that these will require constant maintenance and replacement because of the harsh conditions over which they will be used or better yet abused. Agree on what your hourly rate is going to be and what the costs involved will be and have your customer sign off and thank your lucky stars for landing a large profitable account, these are the customers that can become the backbone of a sign company so that you can grow and expand, this is a great account and challenge to have as long as you put all of the items that need to be included in your contract and everyone agrees to the conditions needed to do this project correctly, and you will have a great life time customer. CONGRATULATIONS This is a good thing (yuck I sounded like that rat Martha Stewart there) Just keep in mind that even with dealing with friends there is NO REASON TO WORK FOR FREE, unless it is working on finishing a beer!
Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :
Here's what I would do.
I use 3-M 680 CR reflective series on trailer doors. It is specifically made for stainless steel. the C stands for controltac adhesive which a real pleasure to use.It has a fine grid cut into the adhesive to create escape route for trapped air..its impossible to get any bubbles. The R stands for removeable...and this means what it says...you can remove it. Im not sure if the CR series is available on non reflective materials but controltac is and works well on nonstainless materials. I get my graphice printed at Gregory.They use the 3-M scotchprints which are electrostatically printed with toner and then laminated.I have used these prints on black trucks for years and have never seen a failure.If you think a tanker gets hot in summer....try a black one! I live in upstate NY and we see those temperature differences too. A good selling point for reflective on trailers is the fact that it makes the graphic much more brilliant at night and in doing so,creates a greater safety factor for the vehicle. Dont skimp on materials for trailers...they live in mighty harsh environment.
Posted by Bill Biggs (Member # 18) on :
I would farm it out to gregory, Talk to them, they scotchprint and clear coat I do carpet trucks that get a lot of wear and have never had a problem with scotch prints. Don't know if the reflective does as well but I bet it does. Bill
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Vicki,
quote: My question is, what material would you recommend for the longest lasting result?
Paint.
Not trying to be a smartass, but there are way too many reasons that can lead to failure on this job if it's done with vinyl. Harse chemicals, extreme temperatures and such.
"How would I do it?"
ALONE... I'd draw out the oval on a masking material, and do the backround first. Sprayed most likely, but it could be done with foam brushes to get the color blending. (Might even use some pearlescent One Shot to grab some of that reflective feel...I'm a little weird that way ) Once it was good and dry, same procedure for the lettering, black and then red. Cleared over and outlined with red 3M striping tape.
Look Ma! No paintbrushes!
AT A BODY SHOP... Same procedure, but sprayed with automotive paints.
One thing that is cool about this one is that the customer is fed up with the vinyl failing and might be more readily sold on a little paint and expense once...instead of quick fixes every year.
Hope this helps... Rapid
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Hi Vickey,
I'm not sure I would use Edge prints. If I did, I would do some kind of clear vinyl laminate over the top.
Then around the edges of the oval, I would cut a 1/2 inch vinyl strip and seal the edge with this strip. Try to get it on with out wobbles or waves.
You'll get 3.5 to 4 years out of it. The red will fade in 3, but what the hell. He'll make enough money in 3 years to replace it.
If you use reflective, it will be extremely hard to remove in a few years. If this is a concern, then HP black needs to be laid down first, then the reflective over the top. When removal time comes the black will make it easy to remove.
My gut instinct is to go with a Yellow reflective with red and black HP vinyl. The background would be black, the yellow reflective cut to let the black shadow show through, then the red letters on top.
----------------ummm Ray.... A word about paint: this is an aluminum tank, and with out proper surface preparations, and the right primer, paint will flake off the next cold wet rainy day. I know from experience the jobs I had to replace on aluminum tankers. Those were the days.
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
----------------ummm Dave.... Assuming proper preparation and correct paints, I think I agree with Ray on the benefits of paint for a project like this. He did mention "automotive" grades as a prospect and there's other perfectly respectable Aluminum finishes like Matthews PPG.
Aluminum and Petroleum on a FLEET truck with pressure washers is a nasty combination to any vinyl system.
The design is pretty dang simple - the kind of stuff brush painting apprentices learned their chops on back in the day. (Ok, the whole blended background thing is a little advanced, but it's also a little random and freeform - forgiving for brush blending and a real cinch for spraying). The lettering at least is certainly straight forward - you could have that painted from a pounce pattern before a stencil could be cut, weeded and applied. I'd give it careful consideration.
Posted by Vicki Powell (Member # 3796) on :
Thanks again to all for your excellent advice.
I have a feeling most of their "problems" are arising because they are applying the decals themselves. I've already told them that I would prefer (insist) to install myself. I think his main concern is the vinyl failing and not so much on the fading. I think the Gerber Guard with UV along with a seal-it pen may accomplish what he needs.
However, I really appreciate all the advice and will keep doing my homework.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
I would be concerned when they wouldn't let you test a panel.... when there nothing to lose then why not??
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