Just to attempt to clarify something before it may be deleted like Si's "Liberals vs. conservatives" post was...(it's not confrontational Steve... more diplomatic)
Gavin, you wrote:
quote: Does that mean that anyone with an opposing view to yours doesn't state his own views?
Si's pasted post was NOT someones "views"... not Si's , not the writers, not yours, or any other "conservatives" even.
If I was foolish enough to believe that the world is so black & white, that by my choosing "liberal" thought, I then would belive all those choosing "conservative" thought to be inferior... even if that extreme perception existed... I still wouldn't think any conservative could possibly be "inferior" enough to think those statements are anyones "views"
it was trumped up, exaggerated, & over dramatized satire... pure & simple (& yes Myra, it was far more condescending then funny... but so be it)
... so if someone wants to speak out about being offended by blatent bigotry masked in "humor"... don't muddy the waters by claiming ones right to express their "views" because that is not what was happening at all.
Go back to the 200 reply topic on the entrance to the war in Iraq to read a mature exchange of opposing views... Si's post simply was not & never would have been that!
IMO satire like the post in question could only serve 2 purposes:
1. to inflate the low self image of the persons bestowing superiority on themselves
2. to deflate the self image of those who are being targeted as inferior.
#2 would only work on weak liberals, who may be more rare then is the perception of the chest-thumping, gun-toting, self-grandizing writers of such slanted satire...
...but #1 would work on insecure conservatives, which may explain how it got written in the first place as well as how it gets copied, pasted & praised like it did.
[ March 12, 2004, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
.....or Doug,
#3. To give someone else a chuckle or full belly laugh.
#4. To generate a chuckle or full belly laugh watching the ensuing responses.
Laughter is like an' adrenalin rush ya ca'nt live happily without. It's free, legal, non-life threatening, understandable in all languages and even recyclable.
PS: Over-analyzin' humor takes the fun out of it. Don't go there, baby doll.
[ March 12, 2004, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
OOoooooooooooooooh I am SO CLOSE to getting in trouble here!
Let me just say "Well, spoken Doug. Thank you." Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
The reason the gun control lobby not gaining anything is because they use such name calling along with the word "gun".
There are a few who may merit the dehumanization in the gun ownders group. But there are millions more who are very inteligent, highly successful, contributing members of society who vote and contribute to the NRA. And, it is such name calling from the liberal side that brings out the very same satire so many find offensive.
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
Well said Doug, An example of satire, was the post about Steve coming to stay with you for a month. A lot of people bit on that! At first anyway. Sometimes it is hard to judge what people are saying on line. What some people find funny and is meant tongue in cheek is taken literally. I never mean to offend anybody, I think of it as playful interaction, but someone is always going to be offended.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
Let me say right from the start that Si and Marty are two of the best people we have met thru Letterville. Si and I often disagree, but he is still someone I trust and respect to moderate our Letterville Chat Room as Channel Op.
We've got a lot of personal family challenges on our plate right now. In the past few weeks, it has been impossible to monitor the site in the way you deserve. As a result, all sorts of things have been put off. We're a married couple trying to do a 24 hour, 7 day a week, 365 day a year job. I personally feel we do a good job most of the time, but there are times when other issues have to be dealt with.
Today I never even got to read the BB until after midnight. I was disappointed with Si's post. Everyone should know our views on political posts by now. We can only assume that some have no respect for us personally, and/or the way we choose to run our on-line meet. Either way, I am sick and tired of constantly wasting my time typing out posts such as this.
What really drives me up the wall is the content in many of these posts. Instead of typing out their own thoughts, some prefer to cut and paste the opinions of others found on other websites. What's with that?
Sheila. I respect your opinion, but there has been times in the past when I have been the victim of the "we're only messin' with you gangs." They usually justify say something like " Where just laughing with you, not at you!" Yeah right. Let me say from experience that there is not much humour if you happen to be the victim.
I found a letter in my email from a longtime Letterville user this evening. He's a wonderful person, and constantly shares all he knows via this BB in true Letterhead fashion. Yes it's true! He's one of those Liberals. He wonders if he should continue to participate in a community where those of his political views are bashed and ridiculed by those in his community who not only disagree, but seem to hate those with other ideas. What happened to tolerance and comman courtesy? How do I answer my friend John? Not his real name BTW.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Steve...simply tell "john" that it was posted as poking fun at both Liberals and Conservatives. If we can't laugh at ourselves...we are in DEEEEEP trouble!
Steve, i apologize to you for putting you in this predicament. Evidentaly, sad to say, some poeple have zero sense of humor!
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
Si stir the pot? How could anyone ever suggest such a thing? It's Byrd's fault! He encourages him.
Seriously. Years of experience here in Letterville have taught us over and over again that discussions about religion and politics are seldom a matter of poking fun. It brings out the worse in us, dividing and distracting from the whole reason our Letterville community exists. There are all sorts of political BBs that specialize in this stuff. Why ruin a perfectly good online Letterhead meet talking about issues we are split down the middle on?
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote: There are a few who may merit the dehumanization in the gun owners group. But there are millions more who are very inteligent, highly successful, contributing members of society...
Curtis, I completely agree with that assessment. As with all generalizations, a few bad apples can create a negative reputation in the minds of all who rush to judgement without seeing the big picture.
As for the rest of your quote though, the extra adjectives in my gun-toting caricature were specifically referencing Si's clipped parody of "conservatives"
quote: it is such name calling from the liberal side that brings out the very same satire so many find offensive.
clearly in this case of the classic old question of which came first...
obviously... it was the chicken
[ March 12, 2004, 03:54 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
Edited because it was a poor response. No offence ment. Cheers
[ March 12, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Robert Thomas ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Robert, we have been reminding each other many times that this forum is not a democracy. In fact the term "host" is a better choice then "Mayor" for Steve's role in his on-line letterhead meet.
I am quick to contribute an opinion to even the most controversial topics... but you were there, you saw how quickly that thread heated up & put good friends into tense opposition.
I think I missed the post you refer to, but I've been involved in my share typing out long thoughtful (well I "thought" so anyway ) replies only to see them dissappear. I never like it, but Steve's is a tough job, & he does it well. I've often felt a lock would suffice instead of a deleted post, but I support his decision completely because there was too much chance of more feelings being hurt. Imagine recieving an email like Steve mentioned from a valued on-topic contributor & friend.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Guess I don't really understand your post Doug...I must have missed the original post you're referencing...
But I understand Steve's concerns....I do want to thank him for giving some leeway in the "fish" post, as the conversation was of a religious nature. This post remained very civil, and it actually, I think, helped to bring about a better understanding of the relationship between Christian business operators and non believing patrons.
It was a chance for both sides to work out some of the angst that exists in regards to Christians in general, and to offer up some examples of what good and real Christianity is all about to those that have a colored opinion of us.
All remained calm and civil for the most part...folks were respected, and when an accusation was levied I believe that most of the respondents were gentle and humble in offering a counterpoint of opinion.
Anyway, all went well I believe and I thank Steve for monitoring that post and allowing the civil discourse to happen.
I did hear of some that petitioned for the post to be shut off...by some that didn't post at all...I'm not sure if this was accurate...and if so, I don't understand why? People have complete control over what posts they choose to read and get/not get involved in.
If I see a post that doesn't relate to my skills or interests, I just am not compelled to go there.
Have a great day all and much success to everyone.
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
The movie "Wall Street" brought us the chant: "We're mad as hell and we won't take it any more." I have a hunch that this is what is happening with some of us Liberals around here.
We shook our heads a long time and just moved on or ignored the sort of thing that Si Allen calls "poking fun" - and which I call hatred mildly disguised to slide by as humor.
I believe in the microcosm of this board is reflected an attitude of fighting back that also is happening in the country at large.
To throw mud on someone, and laugh because of how it hangs on them, and then berate them when they don't think they look funny - that's not a matter of not having a sense of humor when you are the one who has to go in the shower to wash the junk off.
I believe this sort of "humor" is precisely explained by Doug's 2 points. ======== I actually have a very fine sense of humor. Like I said before, it's just a matter of taste. ========
Posted by dave parr (Member # 3868) on :
It is part of life and it part of us Steve. We, as creative types, have been accused through the years of being, a "little sensitive" about our viewpoints. I think it is something we need to adjust too, learn to use productively. It don't see it going away any time in the near future. Posted by Terry Colley (Member # 1245) on :
I am with Steve on this, I have been a daily visitor to this site for 5 years now, I come here to learn about the craft I love ,through this site I have made many friends around the world,shared skills etc This site was a big help in putting on my own letterheads meet.Why do people feel that this is the place to air their opinions on politics and religion, there are more than enough tv and radio shows to go to if telling the world how things should should be done is what you want. Lets keep the Letterville site a place to go to learn and expand our skills, andsee how people we know are getting on as sign people. Cheers Terry
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Hi Myra,
That quote was actually brought to us by Howard Beale in the movie "Network"....
Howard Beale: I want you to get up right now, and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out, and yell: "I'm as mad as Hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!"
If I am understanding this correctly....as I don't recall the post you guys refer to....the underlying feeling is that some people are offended by jokes that make fun of a particular political persuassion? And those jokes are being perceived as a disguised mean-spirited criticism by the person or group they were directed towards?
I can understand that to a point...but in fairness, it goes both ways and few can deny that conservatives take their shots from the liberal media on a daily basis.
Just watch Leno, or Letterman, or Howard Stern....or read the New York Times.
I usually take these type jokes in stride, and find them humorous...but sometimes a particularly veiled attempt at disguising a mean spirited barb as a joke is indeed hurtful.
I have been guilty of this...haven't you?
I think we all need to be less sensitive on the receiving end, more sensitive on the delivering end and generally chip away some of the hard stuff that encases our hearts. Show a little love and yet become a little more lighthearted.
There's too much bitterness in this world.
Have a great day all....God bless and make today a success!
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
I think Steve does an excellent job moderating this site and keeping everybody in mind. There are plenty of other sites out there for this sort of thing. For what it's worth, I found the post in question to be offensive and totally one sided in it's humor .
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
Yo Todd, of course it was "Network" - what was I thinking? Thanks for the correction.
Guess I had not had enough brain wake up juice when I wrote that, please see my display ad under coffee.
Posted by CJ Allan (Member # 52) on :
Does anyone here have a "real" job.........?? and if so.......when do you find time to work at it.......
............cj
Posted by Suelynn Sedor (Member # 442) on :
Steve deleted the post for a good reason. These conversations only divide us and no good comes from them. To start a new post to continue on the conversation, complete with pasted quotes from the deleted thread, shows a total lack of respect or consideration for the moderator of this board.
Suelynn
[ March 12, 2004, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Suelynn Sedor ]
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
I respect Steve's job as host and moderator. I was banned from another site for stating my disagreement with a Liberal point of view.
My opinion: It takes a sick person not to be able to laugh at himself. Let me clarify myself so as not to offend anyone; ( himself ), not meaning him or her, but either.
[ March 12, 2004, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Rovelle W. Gratz ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Suelynn, I wrote that reply to Gavin while the thread was being deleted & it was never posted there, then I sent Steve an IM explaining my desire to complete a thought more aimed at gaining mutual understanding then at re-kindling a fire. I let him know I posted it, & I would understand if he needed it removed, & thanked him for his decision to remove the original thread. You are partly right re: my "2 points" being restated from the deleted thread, but they had existed near the bottom of that thread for less then 2 minutes. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion of the appropriateness of this topic, but the opinion I felt most relevant was Steve's & I looked for that upfront. (& I think to some degree it must have seemed tolerable to him)
Todd, you didn't really miss much.. use Myra's analogy of the humor an attacker finds in the "funny" way mud hangs off the face of a victim... because it is as close as we need to get to have this "seperate" conversation about divisive postings & subsequent moderating.
quote:And those jokes are being perceived as a disguised mean-spirited criticism by the person or group they were directed towards?
I can understand that to a point...but in fairness, it goes both ways and few can deny that conservatives take their shots from the liberal media on a daily basis.
If you look hard enough... everyone is someone elses target in the world, just not here on the board. If one of your peers visciously attacks your Christianity here in letterville, is the fact that Jay Leno poked fun at athiests on TV going to spare you any hard feelings?
for the record, I did not start my contribution to the offending post by taking offense. I was attempting to mediate some already sensitive exchanges by observing that humor, like my example of Bevis & Butthead, may be stupid... but it's INTENT was quite likely "entertainment" & one should not confuse their own right to be offended with any unfair assumption that Si or the others enjoying his post had any ill intent.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Doug. Makes sense to me. We should also be mindful that if any of us looks hard enough, we can most likely find a post here or an instance where we have done exactly others are being accused of doing.
My point being, we are all flawed and sooner or later we're going to make bafoons of ourselves by holding others up for ridicule. It's one of those nasty human traits we seem to have been born with.
So when this occurs, we can either find a high road to take or put our egos into 4 wheel drive and enter the mud bog.
Gosh darn, I've been in the mud way too many times and now I'm trying to climb out and up to the high road...but every once in a while I lose my grip and slide back into the ugly crevice again.
You know what? There are approximately 291 million people in the US alone, from all different cultural experiences, and to think that anyone will completely agree with someone else is a remote fantasy at best.
So really, we should be cautious about spinning our tires in the muddy pit to see who gets splattered, and at the same time we should develop a teflon skin so when an errant attack does come (and it will)...it can easily slide off.
It's probably better to just forgive the attacker and let them marinate in their brashness. This is the "softer side of Todd" talking.
It doesn't mean that you give up your ideals and principles...and one can make a case in a debate, but a debate is much different than an argument. In a debate, you try and convey your point of view in a respectful, logical and convincing way.
An argument is when you thrash your scythe from side-to-side in a slash-and-burn attitude with the intent of destroying.
Edited for spelling - - that's the first time I ever used the word "sythe" in written form.
[ March 12, 2004, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
One can often be seen objectively by others much more clearly then they see themselves. I am guessing that I must not be achieving the moderate & non-judgemental position I had thought I would be able to achieve.
To the best of my knowledge, my only real topic of discussion I am writing to here is my "thoughts on the merits, or lack thereof, to divisive satire on the BB"
I will admit to a little "poking fun" of my own with my comments on "point 1" re: conservatives low self-image, & later with my chicken & egg analogy...
If I seem to be taking the high road, then allow me to climb down here. I don't think you are placing my posts in the "slash & burn" argument catagory, but if it seems that I need to "develop a teflon skin", or learn to "just forgive the attacker... I would respectfully disagree.
Nowhere do I take issue with Si for posting that. I have agreed with it's offensiveness, & with Steves role in deleting it, but never cared enough to judge or critisize Si for posting it.
Someone replied to the original post that they were very offended & was articulate in his opinion that it was tasteless & hurtful to him & possibly others. (as we've later seen verified)
In response to that persons stated feeling of being victimized (my word, not his) someone else accused him of trampling on the "conservatives" right to free speach, or having a double standard that allows him identify negative satire, but dissallows the negative satire.
Basically that exchange was the real heat that burnt out the thread IMO... but the post really had no other logical conclusion because it really was blatently inflamatory. Myra even admitted not reading it all, & I forced myself to... finding some humor in the extreme one-sidedness... but also seeing where it would most likely end.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Hi Doug...sorry, I guess I wasn't really specific enough. My last post was meant as a comment on society generally and wasn't at all directing it specifically at you. Just the first sentance.
I was just trying to state in general terms that there are better ways of getting views across for "people in general" than out and out slamming them (even in a so-called joking manner), and there are better ways of reacting than to return the favor with a devilish grin.
I should probably just shut up, because maybe I'm not speaking in context here...
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Actually, I find it interesting how much is tolerated here(from people like me).
But like the jr. high school history teacher said, with freedom comes responsibility.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Suelynn, very well put. I agree, with not naming names it is clear of the disrespect some people have to the laws of letterville. Not just the laws but the unwritten one called common courtesty Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
why can't we all just "make love" and have peace? or is that, A PIECE?
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Call it self conciousness, or whatever, but I decided to take a fresh look at the "laws of letterville", and typically, I couldn't find it. I did a search, looked in faq, but no.
Where do I look?
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
All the more reason to keep posts on-topic.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
I've got an idea. I suggest we make the rounds of all the most popular Liberal and Conservative websites. Instead of posting political stuff, post long essays about the benefits of being a Letterhead. Make posts about layout, design and color. Be careful with that color one.
Talk to then about Letterville. Scold both sides about the silliness of wasting time on politics when we all know the real answer is The Letterhead Party. Insist they allow representative from Letterville to speak at their upcoming conventions. I'd suggest Mike Languein be given a few hours just to tell Lenny The Sign Painter stories. I could stand some extra attention myself. If they think Janet Jackson is wild, they're gonna soil their pants over a chubby Letterhead with a #2 Mack quill piercing his nipple.
I'm having too much fun here. The point I'm really trying to drive home is to leave all that other junk behind when you go come to Letterville. I'll go even furthur and suggest you leave it behind when attending a Letterhead Meet. Making new friends and learning new stuff is all that that is important when wearing your Letterhead hat...it's actually a t-shirt in most cases. If you are inclined, nobody will have any problems if you arm yourself with a spray gun.
One last thought! When you are posting about Letterheads on the political sites, make sure you mention how cheap the taxes are in Letterville. Who knows? An uprising like this could be the answer to World Peace. A Letterhead First Movement!
[ March 13, 2004, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Steve,
You continue to amaze me with your common sense. As usual, you're right and I'm almost speechless.
And ya know what? You're darn funny too. I think you'd be a fun guy to get to know. Have a great night.
Posted by faye welsh (Member # 2524) on :
steve, i apologize for my part in si's post. i love a good spar with a good man. i have no man in house by choice.you have a complicated enough life to deal with, without having to "babysit" a bunch of juvenile adults.i have always told my kids, leave your bad moods, arguments,and problems at the door before you step in my house. this is a peaceful haven. letterville is home to many, a place for a listening ear, a happy moment, a place to share concern,joy,and tears. you have every right to ban a post and protect people from hurt, you own the house.besides no one needs anymore stress in life,you and i both know that.take care,you old sweetie.
p.s.doug,you would make an excellent trial lawyer,i mean that in a good way.i would want you defending my rights anytime.lol. fiddles
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