I am on a dead end street, nice quiet area, with other artisans, a custom furniture builder, a cabinet shop, etc., so I don't get any walk-in traffic.
If I moved to a more visible location, I know I would get more walk-in traffic, but the cost would be much more.
I've been in business since 1995 and I don't think I have gained the market share that is available in my area.
I have a part time salesman, but he isn't doing much (commission only)
Would it be better to get a full-time sales person or go for a more visible location?
Cheers
[ January 25, 2004, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Robert Thomas ]
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
I really like this question. I might keep bumping it to see what others say.
I have a shop on a very busy highway, but it produces little walk in traffic. That might be because it's an older building, not sure. But I also think it's because the traffic is driving by so fast, (50+mph), and it's at the base of a hill, they'd have to be hard on the brakes to stop there. The highway is well known as a deadly one.
I've seen 'em come and go. People rent a shop nearby, thinking they'll put up a sign, and all these people will flood their store with traffic. They do really serious remodling, make the place look nice, get inventory, but nothing happens. Then a couple of months go by, and they go into emergency mode. You know, take out ads, hand out flyers, put up streamers in the parking lot.
When they talk to me about it, I tell 'em they gotta be in that mode from day one. Pretend they're on a hidden street, and they need to drum up business with something other than their location.
THE BEST REASON FOR BEING ON A MAIN STREET IS FOR CUSTOMERS TO FIND YOU MORE EASILY. That's what I tell 'em. Granted, your situation may be different, and I hope it is. That hill and fast traffic aint a bowl of cherries for me, check those kind of things out.
My guess is that people think in terms of going from point A to point B, and anything else in between is a big hassle. Notice that when the main store leaves a center, it often dries up. People must like to do their shopping in one place or something. I couldn't really say, one, I don't think and act like most folks, and two, there are marketing specialists MUCH MORE qualified than I to speak on the matter.
I have been able to survive by splitting the rent with my father in law, most of my work is on site, with repeat customers.
Nonetheless, (is that all one word?) I'm very interested in this thread and what others say.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i started out as home based in 86 full time. moved to here in 98, set up a shop on a busy highway, 2 miles from a roundy round race track, 1/2 mile from the county fair grounds. nearest sign shop(as a storefront) was 2 miles east of me. come to find out i got 4-5 with cutters and plotters in their garages.....right up the road!!! i dId good for year and 1/2...even made $5000 one month, then after all the tire kickers, cheap a**es, deal hunters, people who want to tell me what joe schmo was doin the same job for......i closed the door and moved to the house...AGAIN. had a bad 2 yrs....the 1st was the yr i closed the shop, and the 1st full yr at the house. then i bought the step van and painted it up .....and have not wanted for work....since....its basiclly 2- 6 ft x 14 ft...rolling billboards.... says SIGNS HERE & NOW, SIGN SHOP ON WHEELS 944-5060!!!! PURPLE, YELLOW AND LIME GREEN...unforgetable! thats the key to my getting work here....and mostly once i do work for someone they keep coming back, and this works for me. i will never do a storefront ever.
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
It took a leap of faith for me to move out of the house to a business location after 20 years.
Our shop location is a well traveled street, industrial in nature, with a contractors equipment rental directly across the street and and a semi truck parts supply just down the street.
Location is key. Not necessarily a busy street, but grouped in where the honey flows. Contractors need rental equipment or building materials...locate next to those places. Because you are right there, they stop in. Then they tell their friends.
Also, from a home based business, we could not manufacture bigger signs, add on a CNC router and have big commercial vehicles parked on the residential street, legally. This further cut down the scope of our work.
A shop location will pay for itself if its looks upscale, inviting, in a well traveled area and with spin off destination locations...by spin off I mean the people you want to do business with are already down your street for other purposes on a regular basis.
OP, I think things would have gone much differently at your shop if you had that rolling billboard of yours parked out front.
Our vehicle is cheerfully lettered to the hilt and sits out where everyone can see it. There are many things that subtly contribute to a shop location's success.
I am finding out that the majority are willing to pay and extra $20 to $50 once they see our operation and realize that we have bigger and better toys than the "kitchen table cookie cutters." That exta $20 on each jobs goes along way to helping pay the rent each month.
[ January 25, 2004, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
Posted by Bill Dirkes (Member # 1000) on :
Hi Rob, To me, your location sounds ideal. I (you've probably already done this) would explore every way possible to promote yourself at that location. I view each of my customers as salesmen too. Maybe offer price breaks to referred sales? Add some targeted marketing to promote your product to the kind of customer you seek.
In my experience, walk-ins tend to be tire-kickers/price shoppers. Or they are looking for some while-you-wait stickers. (ie. low profit product.)
I hate the idea of moving. The most bang for your buck and the least disruption to you income is to get-em to come to you!
As for the options you propose, changing location does appear more attractive than hiring a salary+commission salesman.
Good Luck!
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Ok I'm going to admit some stupidity on my part,
A few years ago my truck was in an accident and I never relettered it, I didnt need to I had more than enough work.
But recently I havent had squat, so I mustered up enough smarts to letter my 2 doors, since I did that I have had a few calls I can attribute directly to that. I had forgot to promote myself while promoting others.
What a dummy~ Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
It would depend a great deal on the type of business you have.
In our case, we do not rely on walk in or drive by customers. In fact I really don't want them as they would be a distraction for the most part. Our business is largely based on our reputation. Our web web site also plays a major role in attracting and informing customers as well.
Our other business - Giggle Ridge (which IS in a great location) brings us a lot of business as well)
Our studio and shop are located in a small town in a rural area. They are 350 feet back of the road behind our house. I don't have a 'sign' out by the road although there are many clues we are located there, with the funky architecture being the primary one. Folks looking for us have no trouble finding us.
If we were in a retail based business a location would be a necessity however.
-dan
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
OK Bob, I'm gonna FURTHER reveal my ignorance : I've never worked with smalts. I was thinking they look like bits of broken colored glass, for lack of a better description. Did I read correctly that you had this applied to your truck door? Sounds like a very cool vehicle graphics option. Maybe it comes in a smaller size that would adhere better to a vehicle???
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
James,
It reads "smarts" not "smalts"
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
James,
That would be a great additive, but as of now I just add that look in Photoshop and print it on the edge.
It doesnt look no way as well but you can see the texture.
Posted by Chuck Churchill (Member # 68) on :
Fifteen years in a commercial strip plaza has taught me a lot about location. We selected the location when we first opened (as a vinyl only shop)because the Ministry of Transportation License Renewal Office was located there. That meant everyone in our city of 150,000 had to pull into the plaza once a year! Location was well known to all and some of them would come to us for a sign when they were renewing the license. Also the 12 other businesses in the plaza were largely business to business operations. Harvester Rd is a busy major industrial/commercial office street and the plaza has good street visibility (The trees have grown a little to tall and block the signs plus the band of storefront signs makes it hard to pick out a business from the crowd).
Last May the drivers license office moved out and I figured the walkin traffic would drop considerably. I was kind of looking forward to that because we have a huge excellent customer base and am not very interested in growing larger. Turns out the walkin traffic increased! The drivers/auto license renewal office created a never ending parking/traffic problem in the plaza. Once they left it was more convienent for businesses that realized we were there to come and talk to us. They could park right in front of our door and didn't have to worry about backing into another car on their way out of the parking space.
I still think we are going to move to less visible space when our lease is up this fall. We now do a lot more than cut vinyl now. A half dozen of our customers keep us busy all the time and the other 400 make us to busy. I want to be more profitable not bigger. An invisiable location would cost us less and keep us hidden from all the guys that want one decal for their snowmobile today because they are going out skidooing this weekend.
Look closely at how convienent your location is to get to then decide if you want to make it more or less convienent.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Rob, The right location can make your business. But, it doesn't necessiarly have to be a busy one. I guess you can say there's 2 mentalities to this approach. For a lack of better terms, I'll use the franchise mentality vs. the independent shop. The franchise mentality is a good location with a high traffic count and easy access. It's the mass marketing approach to selling. More exposure will attract all kinds of potential clients into your location. Weather it be a sign for a residence or vehicle lettering for a contractor. The independent approach is choosing a location like Dave Draper has. It's more like target or niche marketing. He knows what type of clients he wants and he put his business in the right location that's convenient for his specific clientele. That being said, location is only part of the marketing picture. If you want to generate new business you still have to advertise. The franchise approach is to pay more rent for a high traffic location. It can be justified if you use the location to really promote your business. Just putting a sign out front of a busy location isn't going to attract the masses to your door. You have to saturate the market with all forms of media, direct mail, large phone book ads, even TV and radio spots. Every opportunity to get your name in front of the public is used. You also have to make sure you staff the place with knowledgeable and helpful associates and keep the doors open regular hours. The showroom must to be well lit and inviting. The independent approach is to move into an industrial location and build your business slowly. From my experience, in an industrial park, you can set your hours to be by appointment and not have to worry about the staff to keep the place open regular hours. Mainly, because, you're less likely to get the walk in retail traffic. You still have to get yourself known. Most industrial parks have strict rules when it relates to signage. So, using your location to advertise really isn't going to be effective. The money you save on the location still has to be spent one way or another. A nice showroom is important, but, you may find most of your sales meetings happen at the clients location. Spend the money on a great portfolio and be prepared to bring some samples. Also, whether it's your time knocking on doors, making phone calls, a yellow page ad or a direct mail campaign, you still have to spend time and/or money to get your name out in front of your market. Once you establish a decent client base, word of mouth advertising will go a long way.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Guess I had the first line of my response right!!! Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
Thanks for the replies and keep them coming!
One of the reasons I asked is, I was in a shop in a strip mall, checking out his large format printer for some jobs I have coming up. He is your basic sign shop , nothing fancy kinda ugly logo & lettering, but busy as heck. Some employees were in the back working. He seemed to be doing well.
I think it is because of his location, not the quality of his work.
Cheers
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
"Location Location Location" is a phrase used by realtors, who incidentally, don't like paying any more than what's absolutely neccessary for their own signage and image, so logically their own catch phrase is as useless to everyone else as they view their signage.
Anyway...
No, location has nothing to do with success. Being in the forefront of the customers mind is what's important, and while location can be a key in that respect there are more important, more effective things you can do to promote business without the additional expense. Besides that, a sign shop doesnt belong in a commercial or retail area. All the noise and dust generated by the tools and fumes from chemicals are sure to upset everyone else nearby.
I know of a local sign/graphics business who opened up a shop when they first moved into town. It's owned by a husband and wife team, really nice people. They weren't even in an area with busy foot traffic nor a lot of traffic on the road in front of the shop, but they had so many walk-ins that they couldnt get anything done. They ended up moving out of the shop and into their home, which *is* on a VERY busy main road through town (this city is laid out really weird). They ended up with less constant walk-ins but the business still thrived - in fact they are now moving again to another street that's well off the beaten path, into a house that has more garage space for work. Now they have built a good reputation and shouldn't have any problems staying busy.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
dave, i was there 20 months, had banners, 4x8's, and the vehicles i did was right in the parking lot. there was no lack of self promotion of my location and what i could do. i spent $10,000 in rent and found the rolling billboard while i was in that location. yes it helped me to get established in a new area and to see how the people do business here. and i was gona buy the step van and keep the shop....that was my intention, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions....hehehehe. had 4 months in a row...of barley making rent...so i bailed. was a good location, cheap rent for any high traffic storefront, but iam more comfortable workin outa the step van.....and home.
[ January 25, 2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Kristie Byrnes (Member # 3510) on :
My shop was on a busy highway thru towm with the speed limit 35 mph, and not quite 3 yrs ago I moved to a farm about 1/2 mile off the highway. down a lane. Turned the barn into my shop. I was worried that it would hurt business, but the opposite has proved to be true. I'm much busier now than I was with better exposure. I do have my sin along the highway, and the town I live in is only 600 people, but I even get business from Chicago. I do no advetising other than my roadside sign. It all comes from word of mouth and reputation. ( I do have my truck lettered) I just think that amazingly, I found my niche.
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
Good for you Kristie.
Sounds like a nice gig, and no more shop rent!
Posted by Mark Rogan (Member # 3678) on :
I may be in a slightly different situation than some (or most) of you. Great Barrington is a very busy tourist town. Quaint New England and all that. Our main Street is mobbed during the summer and fall virtually all the time. Winter and spring aren't bad either. Lots of foot traffic. I mean LOTS! For me, the ideal situation would be a storefront on Main street and a barn on my property at home for production. Right now, I'm paying reatil price rent for both my showroom and shop, but I'm in a location that gets NO foot traffic. Unfortunately, I have another two years on my lease, but I'm starting to plan my move already. All my business clients usually require me coming to see them anyway but I think a storefront that could have house and driveway markers, faux antique signs, fun plaques, etc. would really do well in a town that has so many people on vacation doing the shopping thing.
Posted by Camille Norvaisas (Member # 501) on :
Rob - why is there a cake next to your name on the posts?
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
Camille, I just noticed that too. Never seen one before.
I guess it's a hint that I am celebrating the 16th anniversary of my 30th birthday today.
Posted by Tony Lucero (Member # 1470) on :
A decent location will pay for itself. We've leased various locations from industrial spots to high traffic strip malls. We've done well in every case, but when we purchased a stand alone building on a moderately high traffic location, we realized that the exposure was key. We picked up enough additional vehicle lettering business to more than cover our mortage payment. Every month gets better and I kick myself for not taking the risk and doing it earlier. I can honestly say that the location pays for itself...and more. If I had half the talent of most of you letterheads...I'd really be in the chips! In the final analysis though...we all don't take advantage of all the opportunities that are in front of our faces everyday. I just keep listening to guys like Draper, Sawatzky, and Chapman and their motivations pay off.
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
One of the new codes our glorius county government has introduced recently is that if you do signs that are installed, you must be located in an area zoned industrial, which I am. But it limits, the areas that I can move to. Right now, there's a bunch of shops in non-industrial locations, strip malls and such. I don't really want to deal with tons of walk-in traffic but name recognition would help.
I would love to buy some property on a well traved road and build a shop & maybe a couple of 1000 sq ft shops to rent & be a resident manager.
Renting sucks up the profits, I paid 15,000 in shop rent last year. Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
livin in florida....these people in the counties....never stop amazing me with there.."makein jobs" for people to fill. in sarasota i worked from my house....got a letter in the mail one day...CEASE AND DESIST working from your home!!!! ok...so i go to the office that sent it....went in there and asked what this ment...the said exactly what it said...then i said which waay to the welfare office....if i cant work then YOU NEED TO SUPORT ME... needles to say....that ended there. here iam building a garage....i got 2 acres....the got me for $75...for the health board to come out here...AND SHOW ME WHERE THE SEPTIC TANK IS....after I SHOWED THEM WHERE IT IS!!!!! and to make sure iam not putting the building over top of it!!!!!!!!!! what BULL S***!!!!
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Here's another way to look at choosing a location. Our shop is on a fairly busy street that gets traveled by 9,500 vehicles a day. Over the course of a year, that's at least 3,467,500 people that see our shop. If you were to assign a $ value to our location and that type of exposure, my estimate would be that the location is worth nearly $4000 per year in advertising value - if you compare it to outdoor advertising.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
What a fine place Letterville is!
Thanks Steve & Barb for having us - and thanks to everyone who participates in this wonderful, crazy little town. (Writing that made me feel a little like Frank Sinatra...just for a second.)
This is a great discussion -- so many interesting points of view.
Robert:
After reading a few of your recent posts, I can see that you're looking for ways to recover from a challenging year (understatement).
Imagine for a second that a few years before your herniated disk, you had developed a strategic plan that addressed the worst possible threat to your business: the possibility that you might not be able to work (for any number of reasons). Your plan adressed this by making a certain amount of growth (to build a war chest) a priority. It also had you working to develop some basic policies and procedures to a degree to which that bright, young employee you are developing could pretty much run the place in your abscence.
You get the point.
I would challenge you to take a step back and -- for the moment -- forget about hiring a SalesRep or worrying about your location. Forget (again, just for the moment) about your need to turn a profit this year.
Spend some time thinking about whatever it is that you want to accomplish with (or through) your business in the long run. Define this as clearly as you can, then develop a strategic plan for accomplishing your vision...by defining opportunities that can be exploited based on your strengths, by addressing any weaknesses that may impede your progress toward success, and by identifying threats and planning for the worst.
Does hiring a Sales Rep in the near future "fit the plan"? Does a change of location "fit the plan"? Without a well developed plan in place you run the risk of focussing your attention (and resources) in the wrong places at the wrong time.
Unless you have a plan to refer to, it is also awfully difficult to make these kinds of important decisions with any sort of real (as in "well founded") confidence...which I sense you might be experiencing.
If all of that makes some sense but seems like an overwhelming sort of undertaking...consider seeking outside help.
Posted by Craig Lewis (Member # 3271) on :
Ok........ Let's throw in a new twist.
I have been dabbling in vinyl signs and lettering with custom air brushing for a year and a half out of my home.
I've had a ad in the phone book for a year.
I can't generate enough work to make this work.
I live about 2 miles out of town. About 40,000 population.
I have since lost my job due to a lay off and will never get back in.
I would like to give this sign biz a go.
I'm thinking I need to go to the bank, barrow some cash for capital spending and rent a building in town for visability and exposure to get started.
Any coment on this would be appreciated.
Thanx
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Craig This is actually another post
Dabling. sounds like someone who has no commitment, just recreating a little.
You will go much farther gettin some cash flow by gettin yerself out and selling some work. It will take a couple of weeks but, it will start. And when it happens you must be ready for it. Lots of little stuff but every now and then a big hit. Spend just 2 hours in the morning going to every bizz in town. Pass out a nice looking flyer with a a biz card. Be creative in what you do. Banners are easy and good for inside as well as outside. Keep pluggin away and the work will build up. Keep adding in more techniques. Suddenly you will find yourself busy enough you can turn away the little nickel and dime jobs.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Craig:
Initially, I had the same reaction as Curtis. If you want to be successful, dabbling isn't the way to do it. You've got to be committed. Although I agree with Curtis's "Just Do It!" approach, I think your efforts will be far more effective with a plan to follow.
I can't think of a better time than when you are just starting out to (at least begin to) acquire the discipline of strategic planning.
I lifted this from my post to Robert above, because I think it may prove useful to you:
quote:Spend some time thinking about whatever it is that you want to accomplish with (or through) your business in the long run. Define this as clearly as you can, then develop a strategic plan for accomplishing your vision...by defining opportunities that can be exploited based on your strengths, by addressing any weaknesses that may impede your progress toward success, and by identifying threats and planning for the worst.
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: I've never worked with smalts. I was thinking they look like bits of broken colored glass, for lack of a better description. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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