I'll be happy to pay more for something if it means that I don't have to shop at Wal-Mart.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
A very interesting read James..Thanks for the link. An insightful look at the way big business works.
I'll still continue to shop at Wal Mart as long as the line-ups at the checkout aren't too long. If they are, I'll go elsewhere.
As to how it might impact the small sign business (gotta get this in)...it won't. Service is paramount to the customers of small sign shops, not price. We (most of us) don't provide mass produced signage. We produce custom made products. Wal Mart type businesses can't do that at a cheap price. IMHO
Still a great read.
Posted by Robert Richards (Member # 3244) on :
Wal-Mart has put more mom & pop businesses out of business than any other retailer in the country. Anytime a new Wal-Mart opens, especially a super store, it is good and bad for the community. It hurts about as many as it helps.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Thanks Stephanie... that was very interesting.
(for those that didn't read it... besides putting mom & pop stores out of business, many larger companies lay off all there American employees, close all there US manufacturing facilities & begin getting 100% of their goods produced overseas in order to supply Wal-Marts "everyday low prices"
I'm not sure why I read it all, but once I did I got to this line very near the end. I think this says a lot...
quote: Wal-Mart has also lulled shoppers into ignoring the difference between the price of something and the cost... Ever-cheaper prices have consequences...
"We want clean air, clear water, good living conditions, the best health care in the world--yet we aren't willing to pay for anything manufactured under those restrictions."
Posted by Mike Pulskamp (Member # 3475) on :
Hmmmm, Lots of opportunity for "going out of business" Banners. Well, until Wally-world starts selling them for half what it would cost any of us to make them.
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Walmart doesnt drive mom & pop biz out of a community when it opens somewhere...the community itself puts those buisnesses out by choosing the Walmart over those which they claim to covet so greatly and hold in such high regard. If noone went to a new Walmart it would close....yet people will drive for miles and flock there in droves and turn right around and give speeches to everyone who will listen about evil greedy corporate bastards and how they ruined the town,so&so's biz etc.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Great post James - thanks!
When Wal-Mart first came to Canada I was still selling screen printing supplies for ND GRAPHICS and my biggest customer began producing ALOT of Wal-Mart's POS display advertising.
My customer learned quickly that Wal-Mart's business practices were as described in this article and tried to adapt by adopting the same approach with their suppliers..."You're going to reduce our prices by 10%, Jon, or we'll be forced to look elsewhere for ink". It took some serious work but I was able to keep their business without discounting...based on the inherent VALUE of my product over the competition's.
IMHO Wal-mart may talk about value for the customer, but they are only trying to confuse consumers into believing that offering low prices equates to giving value.
In our highly short-sighted, consumerized society it doesn't seem to bother people that cheap, disposable, made in China CRAP may actually only cost less THE FIRST TIME YOU BUY IT. Not to mention the impact that stores like Walmart have in the ways described in this article. (I almosted quoted the same couple of paragraphs Doug!)
You can almost imagine a "Brave New World" in which the same masses that have all been brainwashed by television to desire lower prices above everything else not only buy everything from Wal-Mart...but also all work there. Of course, they are all enslaved by debt that they've accumulated at the company store. At least they live in America and have their freedom though, right?
I don't buy anything from Wal-Mart; never have and never will. Call me old-fashioned or just plain dumb, but I would rather pay higher prices for REAL value and better service...not to mention probably get a better sleep at night.
[ January 02, 2004, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Many years back, a realtor wanted to sell some property to Wall Mart near here. There was question about zoning, and this caused enough delay for folks to rally together and evaluate the situation. We found a guy from Colorado who had a seminar teaching small shops how to survive and prosper with a WalMart in the community. His basis was not to compete with them. They sell junk and have no service. The folks on their floors don't know your name and don't know their products. If a merchant sells better quality and approaches the customers in a personal manner, and can show them the value in buying better quality, they can survive very well. We never experienced the damage a small community feels when those bog box stores come, but were prepared.
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
Watch Home depot prices when they move into your town. I was shooping for a 36' extention ladder. I went to two different HD and found the price to be $100 difference. One of the HD was only a month old. I then found out the reason. When Home depot moves into a town they will take a loss for up to a year just to undercut local merchants and try to put as many out of buisness as possible. This is how they became the #2 outfit in the US.
Posted by Steve Burke (Member # 2674) on :
And people complain about Microsoft!!!!!!!!
As a couple of people have said, we are the authors of our demise... Personally I find it despicable that countries like Canada and the USA (and most other "modern" countries) do business with China, where the civil rights' abuses are absolutely horrific. The UN should not allow a country to import goods from a regime such as theirs...
I am a firm believer in "you reap what you sow". Eventually there will be a settling of accounts.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Gavin got it exactly right. The success of Walmart, Home Depot, etc. is based not only on low prices, but on the deliberate and concious separation of cause from effect. We go to these stores to "save money", while deliberately evading the fact that the cheap goods there are produced by slave labour in a nation (China) that has built its economy, and its long-term strategic goals, on the premise of making itself and its goods indispensible to Western economies, to compensate for the loss of skilled labor in manufacturing.
Think about it (no, really. It doesn't hurt as much as you might imagine.) How has the US econmomy managed to "defeat inflation" since the early '80s? The definition of inflation is too much money chasing too few goods - so, open the floodgates of the China trade, flood the domestic markets with cheap imported goods, essentially exporting factories and the labor market to places where expectations and wages are virtually nonexistent, and dissent is ground to dust under tank treads in places like Tianamen Square (and others we'll never see on CNN). When you start to see the slaughter of people who revolt against slavery, as a means of maintaining US domestic economic policy, its easier to understand why we don't object to that sort of thing.
In order to have a real, functioning economy, you need real, functioning people in real, functioning jobs producing real, functional goods. In order to have that, you need a society where people comprehend cause and effect, where decisions have consequences. But that's reality, and reality is cold and unforgiving and doesn't give a damn about our feelings or our childish notions of what's "fair", so we nurture those fantasies and build a world where no one has to see or experience consequences to their decisions - and then look around in wonder at how cold and ruthless coporate machines have gutted the economies of our small towns, and how our lives have been turned into a hamster wheel of meaningless work to afford the leisure of watching meaningless TV shows, which exhort us to buy more and more meaningless **** to fill up the blank spaces in our souls. And then we have the gall - the sheer, self-serving hypocrisy - to complain about the nature of the world we have created for ourselves.
Posted by Kimberly Zanetti (Member # 2546) on :
There was a FASCINATING show on PBS a few weeks ago here (I believe it was NOW with Bill Moyers) about the Cost of Wal-Mart to a community, most specifically focused on a part that people rarely think of. Wal-Mart comes in and pays all of these people super low wages and minimal benefits. There are no health benefits for part-timers so they try and get lots of the employees on a part-time schedule. This ends up being a huge problem in that these people end up using social services such as free clinics and other costly medical services because they don't have insurance.
As for the whole China thing...I won't get started on that out of respect for Steve and Barb and our Laws of Lettervile but I'm sure you get my point.
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
One of the Little Rascals' episodes is about the Chain Store moving into town and running Granny's market out of business. I don't remember how it went, but of course the kids triumphed, chasing the mean old rich guys down the road and Granny's store remained. When I was a kid in El Monte there was a Mom&Pop down the street from us where everybody shopped. Then a larger place opened 2 blocks over and they cut prices - not much, just a little. But the penny profits the Coopers had survived on for years went asunder and Mr. Cooper wound up working for Jay's as their butcher. The Little Rascals films were being shown every day during this time -- ahh, the good ol' days and Hollywood. Of course the day M&P shut down for good - prices soared at the Super. Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Thanks for the response.
Dave, you can't imagine the curiosity I had entering a Wal Mart for the first time when they came to our area in Sacramento. I'd heard so much about them.
Gavin, I agree with you 100% and although I knew that, this article contained the impetus to end the vacillating on my part, because saving a dollar does mean allot to me, but it's not the most important thing as Wal Mart would have a person believe.
Doug, the reason you read it all is that your usual conciseness requires that you read it all, as it's difficult to comment "au point" without reading the point. Personally, I was impressed how names like Levi and Huffy had to "cannibalize" their profits eventually shut down all their many American plants. The way they write their own terms is awesome too, and to think that they could insist on seeing their suppliers internal book-keeping to see how Wal Mart could be saving money. I think the article is very fair though, telling how companies have been forced to streamline etc., which helps with the non Wal Mart contracts.
Jon, I wish I had had your resolve.
Rick, That was great what your community has done. Rob, interesting thing is that even in 2nd place Wal Mart does in 3 months what HD does in a year, nevertheless; despicable I agree.
Right on Steve.
Cam waxes eloquent once again.
Signed, Stephanie
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
It's not only Wal Mart.
Back when K Mart was closing stores and screaming bankruptcy, many of their suppliers jumped ship and even went public, saying "Hey, they beat us up on our prices diminishing our profits, and now they can't pay us? Screw them, good riddance!"
Now in my town it's a different story. Many people here would rather do their shopping within the heart of "downtown" than drive 2 miles out to Wal Mart, or 4 miles out to Home Depot. During the winter when the snowbirds are here, Wal mart is packed but during the summer it's a ghost town. The Home Depot is struggling, they never have what you need in stock, they're past the outskirts of town, the mom and pop hardware stores that were already here are thriving and Home Depot doesn't even beat their prices, and if ya need lumber, metal stock or other building materials for *anything* we have factory-direct distributors because of the strong new construction market - ie: HoDepot can't touch their prices either!
I get my microwave popcorn from wal mart and that's about it - no one else in town carries my favorite brand. Otherwise, I'd rather shop in a store that's more convenient for me, than drive across town through 6 miles of traffic signals and stop signs completely out of my way to shop at Wal Mart.
**Edit**: Doug, I also read the whole thing and I even printed it all out and bookmarked that page. If nothing else we all can use that article to our advantage, maybe hang it on your office wall or plant it on your customer counter and encourage customers to thumb through it if they complain about pricing.
[ January 02, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
Posted by Kimberly Zanetti (Member # 2546) on :
I have exactly the opposite problem Mike...Wal-Mart is about 6 blocks from my house and everything else is a good drive. Those times where I break down and say, oh I'll just run into Wal-Mart and grab something - all it takes is driving into the parking lot to change my mind and bring me back to reality. It's a ZOO! You can't even find a parking place.
It's not quite as bad in the summer when it is 115º but as Mike said, when the snowbirds are in town...whew!
Here in our town, the Wal-Mart and Sam's Club are closing in the next year and moving to another town about 20 miles away. It'll be interesting to see what if anything fills the void. Both of those stores are heavily patronized by the local immigrant population who often walk there. I'm curious to see where they end up shopping.
Posted by Steve Burke (Member # 2674) on :
Mike,
In the USA it seems as if Wal-Mart has the exact opposite philosophy as they do in Canada- Where I live (Metro Halifax, NS) and the surrounding provinces, Wal-Mart only locates in extremely concentrated urban/suburban areas, not in the middle of the hinterland like in the States. Consequently the place is a madhouse ALL of the time. In Halifax there are 2 Wal-Marts within 5 miles of each other and they are both mobbed.
Who knows? Maybe with their business practices their time on this Earth will resemble Mike Tyson's reign.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Rick,
We had a similar situation a few years ago here.
Zoning questions and the impact to local businesses of the location of a new Wal-Mart delayed the eventual opening for over 3 years. Two towns they were interested in were struggling for retail business at the time and one finally was decided on.
Now, 8 years later, with the zoning laws in place, there have been several large retail chains following behind Wal-Mart. Shaw's Markets and VIP Auto Parts, along with the current construction of an "Applebee's" restaurant and plans for the opening of a Home Depot on the same stretch of road that was barren just a few years ago have put a real strain on the surrounding small business owners.
It's still a very rural area that doesn't have a lot of residential support for these kinds of stores without drawing form the surrounding 30 or so towns. As a result, those surrounding towns are feeling the effects as well to their economies. Numerous businesses have closed, leaving products and services Wal-Mart does not offer among the missing.
Recently, Wal-Mart announced it is planning on expanding into a "Superstore", aiming for the business the other chains stores's around them have built up, offering auto repairs, more office supplies and lower priced groceries. As a result, there's been a frenzy of supermarkets, hardware stores and department stores changing hands, all trying to becoming a part of a larger chain in hopes to retain their customer bases and compete with the "everyday low prices".
The power that Wal-Mart has to affect a local economy can be staggering, and after reading that link, I can't help but wonder if our laws that define what constitues a "monopoly" in a free market society should be readdressed. The recent Microsoft hearings are a prime example of the need to do so.
Sam Walton and Bill Gates are often seen as examples as sucess stories in business, but neither got there without stepping on more than a few competitor's toes. Now, the power they have acquired has become like a machine that does not stop and has developed a momentum of it's own. In many cases, it's a steamroller that does a lot of flattening of those who would offer another option to consumers.
Someday, these corporate goliaths will be confronted by their rock weilding "David" and be reminded that being big does not mean you are the only one who has power. The power of good business ethics, customer care and quality production is still a valuable commodity.
Here's hoping it stays that way. Rapid
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
I did some poking around pbs.org after reading Kimberly's post...
A full transcript of the program can be found here...and here's an overview of Wal-Mart with plenty of links to follow.
[ January 02, 2004, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Thanks Kimberly, and Jon for the link. That program was definately another facet. Albeit, in it's entirety, seemingly bent. Definately LOADED.
I will now leave well enough alone and let whomever wishes to discuss this further, do so without comment from me.
Yours, Stephanie
Posted by Kimberly Zanetti (Member # 2546) on :
Here's the portion of the transcript that indicates what happened in our small town...
SYLVIA CHASE: Yet, communities still receive Wal-Mart with open arms. In the Southern California desert, Cathedral City welcomed Wal-Mart a decade ago, with visions of sales tax revenues dancing in their heads.
SYLVIA CHASE: How much did the city of Cathedral City invest to get Wal-Mart?
GREG PETTIS, MAYOR, PRO TEM, CATHEDRAL CITY: The initial investment was $1.8 million.
SYLVIA CHASE: How much did you get back?
GREG PETTIS: To date, nothing.
SYLVIA CHASE: A payday was expected, once Cathedral City had reimbursed Wal-Mart's building and other expenses at the new mall. Here's how the deal works.
GREG PETTIS: Every quarter when the sales tax checks come in to us from the state from Wal-Mart, we turn around, and write that check right back to Wal-Mart, anticipating that at the end of this time, we're gonna see all of that money coming back into our coffers.
SYLVIA CHASE: But just as Cathedral City made good on its end of the $1.8-million deal with Wal-Mart came a rude surprise: Wal-Mart is closing in Cathedral City and opening three new stores down the road.
GREG PETTIS: Our first notification was when we saw it in the newspaper that the neighboring City Council was gonna be having a discussion about it.
SYLVIA CHASE: You're kidding? You read about this in the newspaper?
GREG PETTIS: Right. And we were the ones who made the first phone call to Wal-Mart, saying, "What's going on? Can we do something--
SYLVIA CHASE: And what did they say?
GREG PETTIS: Oh, there's nothing that can be done. We'll sit and talk with you. But there's nothing to-- nothing to discuss.
SYLVIA CHASE: And nothing to fill up the million dollar annual contribution Cathedral City had expected from sales taxes at the Wal-Mart.
GREG PETTIS: Right. A million dollars every year. And this is money, general fund money, which is exactly what we pay for the police, the fire, paramedics-- parks, street maintenance. I mean, that's the real bread and butter for a city's economy is what they get in their sales tax. And that's going to go away.
SYLVIA CHASE: Pettis says they will be lucky if they get $500-hundred thousand in sales tax out of the deal. When Wal-Mart abandons this store, the other tenants in the mall are expected to suffer.
The Wal-Mart owned Sam's Club is also going, so this smaller mall has turned over new leases at reduced rates and the lube and oil shop folded up all together. For Cathedral City, it's a symbol of what's wrong about Wal-Mart and that is one reason why Contra Costa County wants nothing to do with the company consumers can't seem to do without.
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
So far nobody has mentioned the 99 cent stores and Harbor Freight. Or are they only scattered all over Southern California? Instead of one giant corporation there are thousands of these and the impact of the Chinese industries on our own must be the same as what Wal*Mart does. HF sells a decent airbrush kit complete for $5 - and you bet I have them. You have to inspect the tools closely - but if you buy from Sears - their stuff is largely made in China these days, too. Driving an "American" car? Ha ha - parts made in Japan and assembled in Mexico, I bet. Boycotting Wal*Mart isn't likely to help my personal economy - as much as I dislike the way it's going I have to get whatever bargains I can.
Two really good old time hardware stores near me have been forced to join with Sentry and Ace in order to stay open and now instead of having the old one-of-a-kind items and service they used to have they've been turned into generic bubble pack on-a-hook stores and selling - Chinese made merchandise, the same stuff Wal*Mart has, only for more money. What are ya gonna do?
The Cathedral City story repeats all over. Cities get romanced by big promises from WM and then lose out. They let them come in for free or pay them to do so and collect no taxes, the small shops close up and in sparsely populated areas WM disappears down the road leaving a big, empty building - and there will always be another sucker city a few miles away. There are 2 of them near me, both with full parking lots, long lines inside and 2 more supposedly on the way. Bugs me that they have 36 check-out counters and only 3 or 4 of them open, and no speed lines. And then there's KMart...pretty much the same story. Some of the ones that closed are now Wal*Marts.
Notice in the article above that Huffy, Vlasic and others "had to" dump their American employees and go overseas in order to stay with WM - you can bet the top execs in those companies are not taking any pay cut. Like Michael Moore says, "There's never enough."
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
And to think that my "New Years Resolution" was never to do a Sign again because of the giants like Wally-World and Stampeds!
Were is the money factor in knowing that the "Order Form Desk".... is giving it away.
I laugh to myself because of their supply of demand policies..
Posted by Greg McRoberts (Member # 3501) on :
I'm very proud to say I've never set foot in a WallyWorld, and hopefully never will.
They just built one of those monstrosities less than a half mile from my house and everything around it has become much more of a chore; traffic, etc.
Speaking with a local cop recently revealed that since WM opened, the B&E's in our once-quiet neighborhood have jumped 60%. This is only since June!
WalMart is slimy in the first degree.
Posted by Adrian Niño Anaya (Member # 3537) on :
I sure enjoy the free enterprise. But, to my perception, the Wal-Mart culture/machinery is legally abusing the system an is happily in the unfair zone.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
When our WalMart first opened, I shopped there regularly. I liked being able to hit the crafts section, buy new socks & groceries at 1 store cause I hate shopping. Didn't take long for me to realize most of their stuff was junk. I might go into Walmart once a month now, although when I'm traveling and discover I forgot something stupid I do go to Walmart cause it's a known store.
I will not buy any perishable groceries at our walmart. The milk goes bad faster, the beef is nasty & both times I tried to buy shrimp there I couldn't force myself to eat it. Even their "allegedly fresh" flowers don't last but a couple days.
It's funny that Walmart has made me more loyal to our other stores, even if they're chains too. My prescriptions come from the CVS drug store, my groceries from Shop & Save and my foamies from Michaels. They may be chains, but they aren't WalMart.
We don't have a Home Depot but we got a Lowes. I've watched their product line change to cheap junk since they opened. The great old hardware store closed years before Lowes came to town & the main lumber yard has really stupid hours that seem to change every week so we're sorta stuck with Lowes for now.
Gavin said it's the community that puts the mom & pops out of business. That's true. With all the hype of Walmart, when an area gets their 1st one, everyone thinks they have to go there. By time the newness wears off, the mom&pops have suffered too much.
Ray, interesting comment about the monopoly laws. That's something to think about.
Posted by Stephen Bolin (Member # 2234) on :
Thanks for posting this, Stephanie.
I am a subscriber to Fast Company magazine, and when I read that article a while back, my "don't tread on me" temperature got hot. Such a bunch of bull old Sam Walton's "made in America" advertising blitz.
Walmart appears to be as much, or more of a monopoly than Standard Oil was, or AT&T before the government broke them up. With Walmart accounting for such a large portion of our US retail gross product, you'd think the government would take a huge interest in scrutinizing their operation.
But all the US government seems to be concerned about is raiding a bunch of Walmarts for illegal aliens, and then slapping their hand.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
What happened to the link and article!?!?!? It apparently disappeared
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Checkers, the link still gets me to the article.. (& it's not a cached copy since this is a freshly reformatted system)
Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
First of all, agreeing with Steve Burke, seeing MADE IN CHINA on something just makes me twitch. I have a real crappy 3 dollar Made in China computer mouse that came with my kids Christmas computer, and it's going back to the guy for a quality unit.
When it comes to Wally-Mart, someone else (JON) already pointed out that they try to dictate your selling price.
I've talked to 2 customers recently that won't deal with Wal-Mart, although it could appear to be very 'lucrative' for them up front----big million dollar, many unit orders. But they know that they will be told to sell to WALLY for less than they are selling to WALLY's competition or else. They've said NO THANKS to Wally-Mart.
When Wal-Mart came to Canada, everyone thought one of our staple stores CANADIAN TIRE would suffer. CAN TIRE was smart, spent their marketing dollars right, and are probably now stronger than ever.
And whenever I get a chance to spend $$$$ with a smaller, higher quality and service retailer, I'd like to think I do...I support the Mom and Pop whenever possible!
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
I get to call myself a dumb-a$$ for a change When I emailed the link, spell check corrected the Wal-Mart spelling in the url.
Cheers,
Checkers
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Too funny checkers!
I used to get a kick out of the corrections that spellcheck would come up with for peoples names at ND GRAPHICS. A lady named Pushpa became "pushpin", a guy whose last name is Babin became "baboon"...that sort of thing.
Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
Okay, now I'm TICKED OFF BIG TIME....
A buddy of mine was in the US recently, and in a big WalMart in the Detroit area. US WalMart's typically have more in them in the way of groceries, etc than Canadian ones.
Anyways, he picked me up a couple of NASCAR mugs in a gift set. I cracked them open and washed them. When I put them in the drying rack on the counter, MADE IN CHINA was looking me right in the face.
So, not only is WalMart to blame, but so are my friends at NASCAR! I guess we have no one to blame but ourselves is manufacture continues to grow offshore!.....
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Ya know Ted I tried farming my signs out to the chinese, to keep up with the american corporate way of thinking and they all came back verticle and with funny looking characters all over them. Posted by Tasmus (Member # 445) on :
In our little town of 4000 folks or so, there no longer IS another option save WALMART. There is a grocery store, a harvest foods, but it can't compete in product or price...so whaddaya do?
the next town has TWO of em!
Posted by fayette pivoda (Member # 4339) on :
I've always had distaste for the box stores, whenever I can I spend my hard earned dollars locally where the profits get spent in my community, and it's getting harder and harder to.
But what set me against 'up the Wallmart' was a vacuum cleaner a freind had bought and it broke, I offered to fix it, found a broke part and went down to a bonafide vacuum cleaner dealer, who I might add said on the phone he had a full line of parts for that very same make and model, but Wallys vacuum was not the same inside but instead a very cheapened version of the same, and the dealers parts didn't work.
The dealer explained to me how Wally had the purchasing power to demand that the vacuum manufacturer make the same model vacuum but to be able to deliver it at a much lower cost, well they did and here was how.
Hey, nothing some epoxy and duct tape couldn't handle, but it was an eye opener indeed. I know, I know, this story sucks.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Just thought I'd follow this one up with thonight's latest news...
Who needs a gallon jar of pickles? By the way, this is how all big businesses work; WalMart is just better at it. Hope Americans wake up before it's too late (I give it ten years before all hell breaks loose with th US economy).
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