I got a typical call asking for a price on a banner. I give the gal a basic price for a 2 color - stressing that I need the file in a vector format (ai, cdr, eps) so I can just crank it out.
This individual is supposed to be a graphic artist with years of experience. She says it's in tiff and doesn't know what vector is?? (What? ) I ask what application the file was created in - she says tiff (what? ) Finally, after much explaining she says she works in Pagemaker (graphic designer - not! a page layout person - yes)
Now after I find out that I can't get the file in any type of vector format she says I'll just drop it by and you can scan it, do what you do and make my banner. Here is where I stopped her in her tracks and said, the initial estimate is for a simple banner with you providing me the file in a format that I can use. If I have to scan, convert, etc. this is a lot of extra steps and time. I explained this until she understood, and I also explained that I can do that for her for an additional fee. After she understood what needed to be done she said, "I'll just take it to Kinko's"
Where does that mindset come from? It seems as though "Dorthy" thinks that going to Kinko's will make all her dreams come true and solve all her problems yet she will still have to jump through the same hoops that I just told her about.
I think this will become more common place in the future as the franchises bite off more of problem solving and people will just pony up and pay them. Any thoughts on how we can educate the drones without spending alot of time? For those with storefronts, this is a little easier as you can have a price list on the wall or brochure that you can point to, but for folks that work from the phone it's another matter. Hmmmmm....
And Happy Holidays!
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
Hmmm, I dunno I'm still digitizin' with the Magic Digits on my hand with L.Quil 1.0 Posted by John Lennig (Member # 2455) on :
Brian, I think, that they will go thru lots of hoops, going to Kinkos, etc, if they don't think it will "cost them any money". thing is, their time is "money", they just don't see it!!!
Sometimes, if they just send you a hard copy, you can just reproduce it (not art, tho)
But...take all this with a grain of salt, I don't use a computer and don't have to put up with these people either.
All this tech stuff.... because they can.... buy into it at your peril...this isn't a putdown on anybody or anything...just n observation on the world as it is today.
Back to ....Hand Jobs R Us...
John Lennig / SignRider / BIG TOP Graphics
ps...Brian...Jan or Feb sounds good to me.
Posted by Bruce Williams (Member # 691) on :
As you probably know, there are lots of dabblers in what's now called "graphic arts." With desktop publishing, everybody and their otherwise unemployable cousins can be artists, typographers,editors, lava-lamps of literacy and what-all. They don't know the difference between a little piece of paper and a large banner, other than scale. Whaddya mean, things have to be "cut out?" All I have to do is mash a button; don't you just mash a different button?
You really can't expect most "professionals" to have studied all the technologies similar to their own. Until DTP, sign makers and printers didn't know much about what the other did, or the jargons (e.g. line spacing vs leading). Even the technology in my 30-year old truck is 'way over my head.
The future, I reckon, will be further merging of signmaking and printing functions. Rather like what happened in the billboard industry. And eventually, I'd predict, real artists will react to the mass-produced junk, as they did around 1980 by making art that the machines were not making at the time.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Boy does that sound familiar. Rule of thumb:
"Pay for Kinkos, Get Kinkos"
You'd think that stupidity could take the holiday off! Your story is repeated every day at almost every sign shop. Somtimes I feel like I am singlehandedly educating everyone's ignorant customers. But on the upside, those who learn, have become some of my favorite clients.
Regards,
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
If she has the file in PageMaker, it means there is nothing more to it than a font because PageMaker doesn't really have any useful drawing tools in it. It's just a down and dirty word processor, unless there are graphics from some other program embedded in it.
Kinko's will likely give her the same answer you did with the scanning fees, etc, or maybe not because they have all the software there and can open the file to see what's in it.
On the otherhand you could have asked her to use Pagemaker to export a PDF, which you could have used, but without the firsthand experience with that program you wouldnt have known it exports PDF's.
Some graphic design schools these days actually are teaching vector graphics, I've gotten a lot of vector art from students lately to make their car club logos. It's pretty nice for a change too because instead of tellin these kids it could cost them $60-$120 just to recreate their artwork, I can tell them exactly what file type I need, what version, convert text to curves and outlines to paths, and they actually understand what I'm telling them.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Most Kinkos have Pagemaker, and will probably just print the banner instead of hassling with it, if I am not mistaken, you can cut and paste from Pagemaker to Illustrator if you created paths in it, providing of course if this "designer" has Illustrator, either way, you would not get the job, because if it wasn't going to be Kinkos, it would have been some cheap quickie stickie shop that doesnt charge for scanning and clean-up
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
We now have several "copy shops" in the area printing outdoor banners.
I would have taken her file around the corner to the billboard company and had her banner printed on their Arizona for $3.00 per square ft. then added my mark up, Same day no hassel production, she would have had her job completed and she could have picked it up the same day she dropped it off.
You asked "where does this mentality comes from"...well, things have sorta changed over night when it comes to banners. Customers are not stupid, they are well aware of the low costs of digital printing.
The day has come where making banners with plotter cut graphics is not worth it, at least in this community.
Since she could have e-mailed her file to a production shop with her credit card number, she could have had the banner the next day by paying a few extra bucks for "overnight" delivery, thus the savings of not paying my mark up, would more than pay for the "overnight" expenses. The question is: "Do our customers know where to look on the Internet to find those deals?" Most of them do.
If you have the bucks or credit, I would suggest you look into leasing the equipment to print outdoor durable banners and wraps, or pair up with someone who can, and just "sell" that work from now on.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
all you gota do is watch a KINKO'S tv commercial.....this is where people get that "mentality"! the commercial portrays the people at KINKO'S as knowledgeable, knowing your every need and being able to do your bidding without ever having any problems. damn good for a few 15 sec-30 sec adds. the worst part is how gullable the majority of people are...... i had one marketing director, a title for some one who totalLy oblivious of how things are done, was very upset with me because i would not do a copy of her artwork, which was a painting by micheal angelo....of joseph, mary and child. and i was making her $50 sign 42" x 60" and it was going on the outfield fence AT LITTLE LEAGUE!!!!!
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
$3.00 a square foot? now those are the people who need to get smacked in the head. I'd expect the franchise shops to use those kind of prices.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Unfortunately, the world is still full of those who think "computer generated artwork" will work on EVERY computer.
cest la vie.... Rapid
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bruce Williams: ...everybody and their otherwise unemployable cousins
I love that term!
I had one last week that called for a price on some 'stickers'. I called Stouse, got their prices and then spoke with the guy that had called me. He told me the prices he got from another shop (which were lower than Stouse's list price, barely above my cost) and told me he thought those prices were high. WTF?
Ya get what ya pay for!
I love the ones that call and answer your questions with "can't you just give me a price?" Uh, no. Not without knowing the details of the job. Do you go to the car dealership & ask what a new car costs then get cranky cause they ask which one and all you want is a price?
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
Okay, I've got an idea. After these fools walk out of our shops, we can call their business and ask why are they so expensive? Or if I pay cash will it be cheaper. Or how about if they give us a break on the price, we will tell our friends where we got the work done at. Gosg! $500.00 for a brake job, but it will only take you a couple of hours. Will it be cheaper if I bring in my our brakes. Can I watch you while you work? Ya know I'm just crazy enough to do this.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Hi Brian- I am sorry that you had to deal with this "graphic designer". Unfortunately this is what has happened to the world. Everything is at our fingertips now, and sure, it's great. But all this technology does de-value the knowledge it has taken us signfolk years to develop. Let her take it to Kinko's. It will look like crap, but hey! The price is right. And you get what you pay for. I get calls like this all the time. Usually it is just like Alicia says. Some days it takes all I have not to take down my shingle and get a job at WalMart. Just wait, I am sure they will start having in-store sign shops before you know it. Love- JILL
Posted by Jereme Gauthier (Member # 4351) on :
$3.00 sqr ft for Arizona prints?!!! I've been paying $7.50...my supplier is using 3M materials laminated...what kind of materials are you getting for that price? If it's apples to apples, I need to talk to your guy...
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Brian,
What you need to realize is the "type" of customer this was.
She was a Kinkos customer right from the start, she obviously sees no value in anything even her investment in being a "graphic designer" and we all know those types as well.
This is not the type of customer I want. I would be more concerened in how to weed these out ahead of time as to not be wasting my time on the phone. Some will think anyone with a heartbeat and wallet is a customer but hey I must be an elitist because I have standards in which I like to work within.
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Ah, you beat me to it Bob. I was just thinking the same thing - let Kinko's have 'em.
This thread actualy has two points, the lack of technical competency of 'designers' we run into, and the generi-fied concept that all this sign stuff is a pushbutton affair. On the first part, shame on them. On the second part, good for us if you happen to cater to needs that Kinkos can't easily fill.
I'm pretty insulated from that for now since all my production is geared toward dimensional and slightly exotic or high-end stuff. I really don't get those calls. I still relate though - because I've been there, and because the current expansion of affordable CNC automation has begun to cheapen the value and perception of even carved signs.
I think the only protection for any of us is to stay as close to the leading edge as possible - outperforming the machines with better design and better craftsmanship.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Reminds me of a customer from last week. He wanted a 4' x 8' with a public notice message (in other words, a dictionary). Lettering had to be 5", 4" and 2" - all the same color. He said that he would be e-mailing me the layout. What I got was a "design" produced in Word with all the lettering the same height, Times Roman, and in a square format. He couldn't understand why I just couldn't take what he e-mailed me and stick it on the signboard.
We did do the job though. And he sent a check for the full amount in advance. Not a bad job, but nothing I would want to do all the time.
Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :
speaking of Kinkos, do any of you have an idea of what they charge for a 20 ft. by 3 ft. three color banner with simple logo (artwork provided), and five or less words? Overnight rush job. I heard over 1 grand? If I heard correctly then I need to take a good look at what they are doing. Also, files can be sent from one Kinko's to another in dif states and the clients can pick up the work immediately in each of those states without it having shipped, too. that might be the advantage they have (and their cousins, Jill!)
Posted by Bruce Williams (Member # 691) on :
Kissymatina said:
"I love the ones that call and answer your questions with "can't you just give me a price?" Uh, no. Not without knowing the details of the job." ------------------------------- SignCraft mag ran a cartoon a few years ago: Sign guy answers phone, customer asks "How much is a sign?"
"Ma'am, all signs are $18.35."
"Why so MUCH???"
Posted by Jacki Allen (Member # 2672) on :
I find myself cringing everytime a new client says their going to have their graphic designer(who usually turns out to be their teenage neice/nephew/next door neighbor) send over their artwork. Half the time it comes in a jpg or tiff suitable only for webwork(and yes, it usually turns out that the same neice/nephew/nextdoor neighbor put up a website for them)
On the plus side, I usually end up getting paid extra to re-design it into being something readable and eye-catching. I dont know how many times I've heard the comment of "I should have come to you first"
On "clean" artwork...Keep a before and after wireframe printout of some project you have done in the past to give a client a visual on what clean artwork means in terms a vector artwork.
On the Kinko's subject...I've gotten some of my best clients after they've experienced Kinko's..usually coming to me in a panic because Kinko's screwed something up. After experiencing service like kinkos, they rarely question my prices and almost always take my advice on how to best tackle a project.
Posted by Brian Diver (Member # 1552) on :
A lot of great feedback.
I like the idea of calling them back Alicia and whining about prices and bringing in our own brakes. (Don't laugh - because I did have 1 smuck ask to bring in his own vinyl and just have me cut it! lets just say I just never returned that phone call)
Usually, when I get a price shopper and the first words out of their mouth are "How much is a sign?" I ask, "How much is a new car? or Hamburger?" Might as well have some fun with them.
I think Joe hit the nail on the head with this having 2 points - lack of technical competency and that everything is just a push button affair. Unfortunately Rick, I think we all spend way to much time educating the customer but I think that is part of business.
We do need to continue our own education (one reason I attend courses @ BIG, ISA shows and letterhead meets) and keep ourselves on the leading edge yet don't loose our roots by using the brush once and a while. Many talented folks here on the BB are using a variety of talents & mediums, it helps us distinguish ourselves from Kinkos, and there is a market for it. There is room for all of us and we need to set our selves up to work with the ones who want the top notch signage.
Have a Happy New Year!
Posted by Bruce Williams (Member # 691) on :
Let's not forget old paint's comment:
"all you gota do is watch a KINKO'S tv commercial.....this is where people get that "mentality"! the commercial portrays the people at KINKO'S as knowledgeable, knowing your every need and being able to do your bidding without ever having any problems." ------------------------------ TV commercials are like that for lots of other trades too, and the numbers of people, and their hours of TV-gawking, are appalling.
. . .Because TV is entertainment, and most entertainment is fiction; always has been. In a commercial, you are watching actors pretend to be Gutenburgs with keyboards, or favorite sons making change for the Walton Family. In the '50s we saw actors pretend to be doctors prescribing durgs without a license. And of course, all this gibberish is originally conceived by a hack writer with no experience in printing, clerking or medicine. Or in non-fiction.
Yes, this is absolute BS. But I'm afraid it's also true, as old paint saw immediately.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Another point that was overlooked in this discussion is the idea that if the file is a vector, everything's gonna be fine...
...Until you get a vector file from some mouth-breathing hump that worked in dozens of layers, and every damn layer has a line now. I recently got a file with the same shapes drawn - take a guess - give up? seventy-three times. The file was a total rat's nest of lines; cleaning it up to be able to send it to a plotter took hours. Thus, a policy change here - ALL electronic files are accepted with the agreement that I will charge an hourly rate to make them output-ready, which is entirely separate from the actual sign price.
On top of that we get these kitchen-table designers who's Daddy paid waythefuk too much to send to art school, and thus regard every POS to come out of their 'puter as a masterpiece; god forbid you do anything but stand in awe of their brilliance. They sell this BS to otherwise intelligent businesspeople, who make the mistake of assuming they must know what they're doing because they have a degree from the Analprobe Institute of Fine Art.
The joke's on us, people. We waste our time making signs; what we oughta be doing is opening an art college. Then the Government can pay us big bucks in student loan money to spout jargon-filled idiocy about "design" to a lot of pierced and purple-haired cretins too dumb or too lazy to go to a real school, and whose major occupation is to smoke cigarettes, dress like circus clowns from hell and act terminally bored and cynical, while learning how to drive the next generation of signmakers insane.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Brian
I think Tiff files are quite nice for repros. As long as they are sent monochromatic.(2 colours)
Even large prints.....if format is to size and resolution.
Nice avenue to work on a better design...
Posted by Mike Kelly (Member # 2037) on :
C'mon, Cam......tell us how you REALLY feel. Posted by Patrick Whatley (Member # 2008) on :
Dammit Cam....I graduated from The Analprobe Institute of Fine Art. I could draw a damn fine Tippy the Turtle and am pretty good at drawing that pirate guy, too.
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
FedEX is suposed to be up for buying Kinko's, so get ready for what they bring to the table. I quoted a banner for a imported furniture distributor and was told what he was currently paying Kinko's. 4.50/sq. He gave them all his printing and signmaking.
Posted by Paul Luszcz (Member # 4042) on :
Kinko's charges $7/SF around here.
What they do is open a file and print it. Period. Good file, nice output. Bad file, junk. The quality of the file is simply not their problem.
I've never hand painted a banner, but anyone who's digitally printed one knows there is far less labor involved than using cut vinyl. And some ad agencies produce files that print beautifully without any touch up.
If you business depends on profitable selling banners, you really better look at a good solvent printer that can print directly on a durable uncoated vinyl fabric.
The bottom line is don't assume people are unhappy with the banners they get a Kinko's. For many short term uses, they might be just fine. And for non-business use, they may look terrible to us because they received amateurish files, but that customer only cares about price. Kinko's is an upgrade to them taping pieces of paper together.
It makes far more sense to look at selling graphics that Kinko's probably won't. (At least for now.)
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
Please, just because somebody has _different_ experise than you do, don't complain that they don't know anything. I've worked with some very talented designers who use Pagemaker (and Photoshop). Their design talents are just as good as most of yours, and yet they have no need to learn or use vector based programs.
Here's the deal -- from the beginning, you should have asked to see the file. Trying to figure it out over the phone was doomed from the start.
For all you know, she typed out the words "Grand Opening" in Times Bold and you could have retyped it in less time than you spent here on the BBS. And then you could have upsold her by showing her some options.
Or, maybe she had something complex with shades and fills that could only have been printed digitally. Kinkos could have easily produced a TIF graphic on their wide format printers. Perhaps a paper banner, or an unlaminated vinyl banner would have met the customers need.
You estimated a vector-based project using cut vinyl that would probably last for years, but your customer may not have needed that. Learning what your customer actually needs is how you educate them and keep them as customers. THAT's how Kinkos grew to be the number 1 duplication company.
Posted by John Cordova (Member # 220) on :
I'm thinking of going to Analprobe Institute. How's their football program? I'm going on an athletic scholarship.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
) I ask what application the file was created in - she says tiff (what? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
) Finally, after much explaining she says she works in Pagemaker (graphic designer - not! a page layout person - yes) ![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
lets just say I just never returned that phone call)